Some 45-70 questions

C

ckpj99

New member
I have some questions about load development for a 45-70. Mainly, where do you start when the charges ranges are so WIDE?

I got a Trapdoor Springfield last year, and I developed a decent smokeless load for it, but I wasn't happy the the accuracy and I wanted a little more flexibility with load development.

I went ahead and got an H&R Buffalo Classic. I was a bit skeptical, but after looking the gun over, I was really impressed. After shooting it at the range a few times now, I'm really happy with it.

I've been shooting up my Trapdoor loads and the gun is doing quite well with those: 30 grains of IMR-4198 under a 510 grain hard cast round nose bullet.

I have some 405 grain flat nose bullets as well as more 510 grain. I have some more IMR-4198 and I have some IMR-3031.

I'm feel comfortable running lever gun level loads in the gun, but obviously trapdoor level loads would be perfectly safe as well.

My goal is accuracy, but with IMR-4198 that means I could load anywhere from 28 grains all the way up to 55 grains with 405 grain bullets.

With such a wide range of charges available, where do you start?
 
The trapdoor will blow up at 55,000 psi and published loads or trapdoor are about half that.

The buffalo classic calculates for me to be much stronger than 45/70 brass and I have validated that with a work up to brass destruction.

I most often shoot the break action with 1 gr Bullseye or Red Dot and a the case filled with Aluminum or steel with a flash hole tunnel up the middle. I can get 440 fps on a 150 gr button bullet, good enough accuracy and that BB gun sound.

My brother shoots his trapdoor with black powder, and that is fun, but you really have to clean afterwards.

I built a Mosin Nagant 45/70 and ran it hot, but I do not like getting kicked by a 45 caliber bullet when 7mm goes a lot further and kicks a lot less.

I have a 45/70 Win 1885 antique that came with some stories from the great grandson of the original owner. I don't know what to do with it.
 
Get the Lyman 49th Edition reloading manual. It will explain the differences between Trapdoor, lever gun (Marlin & Winchester), and Ruger #1 loads. Each one is safe at a given pressure. Do not shoot anything in a Trapdoor that is listed for the lever guns or the Ruger single shot. Each gun has a maximum pressure limit listed for a reason. FWIW, I have all three types of guns and shoot almost all Trapdoor loads in them all simply because they are superbly accurate in all and I have yet to recover even one bullet out of eight or nine deer killed with them.
 
I know my first post was a little long, and apparently folks aren't reading it. I'll sum it up.

I no longer own a Trapdoor. I own a H&R Buffalo Classic. While I can't find anything explicitly stating so, I think the H&R can handle lever gun loads with no problem.

I want to find an accurate load with either 405 or 510 grain lead hard cast bullets using either IMR 4198 or IMR 3031.

The problem is that I now have a huge range of loadings to choose from.

So has anyone developed a really accurate load for a H&R or similar gun that they'd like to share with me.
 
As of now, the most accurate I am finding is at the low end of the range with a lever. People will tell you every gun is different. As much as I think that is poo, I keep finding it to be true.

Both powders you list are at the faster end, I would get one at the slower end as well, 4064 or varget. Start with one bullet 3- 4 powders loaded 1 gr inside low, then just inside hi. Shoot them, find your best powder. Do the same with that powder 3-5 bullets, find your best bullet. Then run that bullet across the powder range with the powder to find the best loading.

I have read 3 gr of powder spread is needed to usually notice. I would test at least 2 gr spreads.

I have long thought boat tail Bullets are the best, my .270 hates them. Just sayin...
 
I don't see how anyone could honestly predict the accuracy of a load fired in YOUR rifle.

Every load and gun combination is different, and what works great for my might be crap for you, and vice versa.

The Lyman "factory duplication load" for the 400 (405gr) bullet prints a two hole three shot group from my Ruger No.3.

(38.5gr IMR 3031). Why not start there?

Yes, its a Trapdoor level load, so what? Consider it a "known standard", and work from there...
 
I've owned, and still own, a number of 45-70 rifles in High Wall (Winchester and Pedersoli), Lever 1886, and three Sharps. All of them shot the best with Trapdoor level loads and every deer shot with them had a complete pass through at any angle. If you're looking for accuracy, start there. If you're looking to take all the fun away from shooting this fantastic caliber, go directly to the "modern rifle" loads. Seriously, your HR isn't at the pressure level the Ruger #1 is at. You'd better check out what the gun is rated for before you begin. I think you'll still find it shoots best with heavier bullets at lower velocities.
 
I would advise slugging your bore if you're serious about cast boolit accuracy. Slugging will point you to the right boolit diameter for your gun, and will let you know if there's anything irregular with the bore (tight/loose spots, a choke). Boolits like to be at least .001" over groove diameter for decent accuracy without leading.
 
I would advise slugging your bore if you're serious about cast boolit accuracy. Slugging will point you to the right boolit diameter for your gun, and will let you know if there's anything irregular with the bore (tight/loose spots, a choke). Boolits like to be at least .001" over groove diameter for decent accuracy without leading.
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Yup, that too. Not only a good place to start, it's a great place to start.
 
As others have noted, all rifles are different, so take anyone else's experience (including mine) with a grain of salt

I've played around with .45-70 for a while. I started with IMR3031, developing a "range/plinking" load of 38.5 grains of 3031 pushing a 405 grain hard cast RNFP at about 1200, and a bit more 3031 pushing the same slug about 1500-1600 fps as a "walking in the woods" load. Using a Marlin with a Williams peep rear sight, both loads are easily as accurate as the rifle/sight/"mature" eyesight combination admits.

So then I started playing around with other slugs and oher powders. If I were a deer hunter, I'd have spent more time on the Hornady 300 grain jacket FP HP, which is reported to be an excellent slug for thin skinned game, but I'm not.

Bottom line, after a bit of time, effort, expense (and, yes, fun), I came full circle back to 3031. Depending on your tolerance for recoil, friendship with a good osteopath, and sense of what you may have to shoot to stop, you can range from the 38.5 load (Ken Water's favorite, and quite suitable for Trapdoors) all the way up to the low to mid 50s. (Reportedly, some reliable writers have used 405 grain hard cast slugs at close to 2000 fps on Cape Buffalo and Elephants, but that is an experiment I decline to replicate. Nor would I think that most cast slugs would take such velocities with leading and impairing accuracy.)

Bottom line: the "wide range" of usable loads for this versatile cartridge is a plus, not a minus.
 
(Reportedly, some reliable writers have used 405 grain hard cast slugs at close to 2000 fps on Cape Buffalo and Elephants, but that is an experiment I decline to replicate. Nor would I think that most cast slugs would take such velocities with leading and impairing accuracy.)
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Bullets cast of the right alloy will handle up to about 2200fps without serious leading problems. Bullets cast from the wrong alloy, for that speed, will seriously lead the bore in just a handful of rounds.

Cast Bullets sold commercially range from soft ones intended for black powder loads (and with the correct BP lube mixture) to hard cast ones for general use and use at higher velocities.

I have a couple of 400gr lead slugs fired from either a .45-70 or a .458 Win that were recovered from more than two FEET deep in an old elm tree. They were deformed enough that you couldn't reload them, but otherwise, quite intact.

To my mind, this answers the "is there enough penetration" question quite elegantly. Cast slugs, purpose made for the task perform exceptionally well.

It's up to you to know, and understand the differences.
 
Thanks for you help folks. Like I said, just interested in accuracy. A 45-70 traveling at anything over 1000 fps is more than enough for anything I'd ever hunt.

I found that 500 grain bullets were more accurate in my trapdoor, and they have been a bit more accurate in the H&R as well so far.

I think I will use up the rest of my 3031 doing some tests with the 405 bullets.

I understand every gun is a little different, folks. I was just trying to find some starting places given that I now have more flexibility with my loadings over the trapdoor.
 
My marlins seem to like IMR 4198 under about any bullet but they especially like the Hornady leverevolution bullets. I also have a BFR in 45-70 that seems to favor bullets 400+ grains but it has a 1 in 14 twist so its faster than my Marlins.
 
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