Social Security

John/az2

New member
The site:

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/bluesky_cwolfe/19990819_xccwo_not_everyt.shtml

The article:

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(Not) Everything
you ever wanted
to know about SSNs

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© 1999 Claire Wolfe

Last week's column about babies without Social Security numbers drew a ton of mail. Usually, that's good. This time it was a mixed bag. I heard from gutsy people refusing to cooperate with government child-tracking schemes. I heard from people with helpful info. But I also heard from lots who either didn't get or didn't like what "Lawyer X" and I had to say. This week I want to deal with some of their objections.
"How will baby drive, get credit or buy a house without a government number?"

Last week's column argued, "Give baby a chance to choose whether or not he wants a number. He can't do that when he's an hour old."

I didn't take a stand against all government citizen-numbering (though, in fact, I do and will). I just said that the decision to bear a tracking number has far-reaching consequences for freedom and privacy, and that an individual is entitled to make that decision for himself, not to have it imposed upon him at birth.

Yep, years from now -- when it comes time to drive or go to college -- grown-up baby will have some tough decisions to make. Of course, baby might face a more hopeful future if enough people -- today -- tell the government (and its Little Brother corporations) to take a leap into the abyss with their control schemes.

"But how will I get my tax deduction if I don't number the baby?"

The government wants more of your freedom. If you don't give in, it'll extract more of your money. And if you do give in, it'll know it can take even more money or freedom from you next time. Are these the kinds of choices you want to continue to be pressured to make? Or do you want to say a resounding NO to such blackmail?

There is an alternate government number you might be able to wheedle for your baby in order to write him off. Ask the IRS about it. You can always make deals -- if that's the kind of world you want.

"But you have to use an SS number. Otherwise, you can't live a normal life!"

This objection -- repeated by more correspondents than I care to think about -- depressed me for days. Of course it's true. Absolutely, totally, completely true. If you don't have -- or if you refuse to use -- an SS number for ordinary activities like driving, connecting utilities, purchasing firearms, renting videos, etc. -- you'll find yourself leading a curtailed life or constantly fighting with bureaucrats, store clerks and company officials.

But can't you see? That's exactly why it's so crucial to fight this universal numbering business as fiercely as if you were a rabid Tasmanian devil!

The abuse of SS numbers has been growing since the first SS legislation was spawned. But only since 1996 have the worst abuses been codified into law. You -- and your children -- are slowly being squeezed into a position of absolute submission to authority -- with your SS number as the lever. It's being used to control your access to everything from credit to health care to work to investments to education to insurance to housing to travel -- and eventually, to food. Free people do not tolerate such control over their lives. It must be halted -- and reversed.

"You didn't tell me how I can get a credit card or health insurance without a number."

Right. First of all, it was a 1,500-word column about babies. You darn betcha I didn't solve the entire SS problem in that limited space. I couldn't solve it in a book -- though in fact, I have written one on the subject.

Anyone who imagines 1) that regaining freedom is going to be an easy little thing or 2) that any writer, adviser, expert, consultant, guru -- or politician -- is going to give them all the answers -- all wrapped up in a nice, tidy package -- is dreaming.

I'll do what I can to supply leads and info on various ways to live free. I hope to have much, much more on this topic, over time. But actually getting free takes dedication, research and risk -- on the part of each and every person who seriously wants freedom. The only question is: Do you consider freedom important enough to make the effort?

As former slave Frederick Douglass observed: "Those who profess to favor freedom yet depreciate agitation are men who want the crops without plowing up the ground. They want rain without thunder. They want the ocean without the awful roar of its many waters. ... Power concedes nothing without demand. It never has and never will. ... The limits of tyrants are prescribed by the endurance of those whom they oppose."

"I just don't like your method of resisting."

One acquaintance wrote:

I don't see the merits that you do of separating oneself from the advantages of mass society just because some idiots are in charge and are making a pest of themselves.
My orientation has always been to either "get out" entirely (through, e.g., establishing several alternative identities along with passports for each) or to simply ignore the bastards whenever possible, comply meekly like a good little sheepie when you can't avoid them, and throw grit in the gears over one's shoulder.

And to this I say, "Great!" "Gopherit!" "Hooray for you!"

I've written frequently that the rowdy, unpredictable power of the individual -- millions of individuals -- is the most potent weapon against tyranny. You do whatever works for you. Just as one car, one color, one book isn't the one for everyone, neither is their only one road to freedom. We can confuse the heck out of the control-freaking creeps by following our individual inclinations and opportunities.

I have just one fear about freedom lovers who choose apparent submission -- with heartfelt beliefs that they'll monkeywrench the tyranny works along the way. And that is that, too often, they're fooling themselves. They suck up the benefits, accept the easy life -- and never take a real, effective step for freedom. Oh, but they will someday. Sure, someday. ...

But heck, however you can screw up a tyrant's plans -- why not? Toss that monkeywrench. Misspell your name a dozen times in that database. Sue the SOBs. Whatever moves you. Just don't submit.

But I still say your child has the right to make her own choices -- when she's old enough.

Finally: a tribute and a sigh

Consequences? There are so many -- and so many heroes who endure them for freedom's sake.

Here's the story of one young man, Trey Felton -- 18-year-old Eagle Scout and 4H clubber -- a sociable kid from a family that "doesn't stand out from the crowd." He has no citizen number because of his religious objections. His mother wrote to explain just one of his struggles.

First, Trey was hired by Burger King -- after being up-front about not having an SS number. A month later (after he pointed out that they shouldn't be withholding SS taxes) the franchise owner -- whom he had never even met -- came in and fired him.

Then he was hired by a major department store -- again, being up-front about not being in the SS system. He worked for one day, then was told to get a number. His mother says, "He has since furnished them with written documentation explaining there is no law that requires him to get a ssn against his religious convictions, a complete breakdown of the IRC which explains the proper procedure for an employer to follow in such a situation in order to avoid penalties, etc., from the IRS, and a copy of an EEOC ruling which supports his position."

An attorney for the store -- attempting to utilize a loophole in the (non-binding) EEOC ruling -- pointed out that business aren't "required to accommodate the employee without a ssn if it would place undue hardship on the company." The attorney then claimed that reprogramming the store's human resource software to list Trey without an SS number would be cost prohibitive.

Trey's mother continues: "I have an extensive background with computers and software. I made a call to the software company and spoke with a person in the know there who said it could be done in any of four simple ways without any expense at all."

The family and the department store are still trying to work things out. But when this worried mother -- seeing the possibility of a religious discrimination suit on the horizon -- e-mailed WorldNetDaily's own vendor-partner, Pre-Paid Legal Services Pre-Paid's rep, Faith Thomas told her bluntly:

[A] SS# is required for membership. The SS# is used as a membership number.
and again -- after full discussion of the family's religious opposition to numbering:

If you want this service ... then give a SS#. If not I wish you the best.
Pre-Paid Legal has the right to set whatever membership policies it wishes. But when a company can confidently expect that an audience filled with conservative Christians and libertarians will humbly submit their federally issued tracking numbers as a condition of doing business, we have indeed come far down the road to universal submission. [/quote]

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John/az

"The middle of the road between the extremes of good and evil, is evil. When freedom is at stake, your silence is not golden, it's yellow..." RKBA!

http://www.countdown9199.com
 
so do you have a SSN, John/az2?

I've never really given it much thought. It was an annoyingly long number I needed to memorize when I applied to college, and have *needed* since. I never knew till this moment I never was required by law to have it.

Hmph. This makes me think. Maybe I can drop out of the SS program....

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Connecticut is the "Constitution" State
http://www.angelfire.com/ny2/beefclub
 
I remember as a little kid, my parents talking about SS#’s. Seems at the time that they first implemented the numbering system there was a lot of flack over it. There were a lot of people who were afraid that our government was treating them like the jews…. Numbering the individuals, only thing was it was not tattooed on the arm. Our legislators were able to get the bill through with the promise that it was ILLEGAL to use the SS# for identification purposes. Still is Illegal as far as I know. When in high school (should I date myself… late 60’s) I had a friend who was arrested for drunk driving… when the officer came up to him he ate his drivers license. Only gave the officer his SS card as proof of identity. The prosecution had to drop all charges as the officer used his SS card as his identity. Anyone know if it is still illegal to use the SS# as identification? I’ve always wondered how they are now getting away with it.



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Richard

The debate is not about guns,
but rather who has the ultimate power to rule,
the People or Government.
RKBA!
 
About 20 years ago I met a man who intrigued me by telling me he had no SS#. He was not a young man and had never filed an income tax form. I shyly asked him if he was a criminal." No," he responded, "I am simply a free man." He never volunteered his personal information to the government, nor did his parents at birth, and consequently did not exist in their system. How did he get credit? Actually , he had accumulated assets quickly without government confiscation during his work life and with a little discipline never needed credit and became comfortably wealthy. No way to know if he was the real deal, but I remember specifically asking if he would get his child a SS#, and he replied-never.
 
Othermarc,

(sigh...) yes, I have one. My parent's got it for me...

It is definately an area that deserves more research. I have heard that you can drop out of the system and even get a "refund" of the money you have "invested" into the system. However, this is only rumor, and I have not substantiated (sp?) it.

It's certainly worth looking into. Maybe someone here has done the research already... :)

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John/az

"The middle of the road between the extremes of good and evil, is evil. When freedom is at stake, your silence is not golden, it's yellow..." RKBA!

http://www.countdown9199.com
 
Hey now, guys. Take it easy! Don't bad mouth our wonderful Old Folks' Retirement System.

My Mom is 87 y/o and on Social Security. Why after she pays for prescription medication (heart disease and osteoporosis) she has almost $100/month to "live" on.

All Hail our benevolent Republocrat Social "Security" system!

How did Coinneach put it? Oh, yeah, "hock, ptui!" (Grrrr)
 
Dennis,
I hate to be the one to point this out but that term "social security", had another word attached to it that people forget....it read "social security supplement"---unfortunately the politicians sold everyone a bill of goods, and people began to believe that ss was a retirement account not a supplement to their retirement...and anymore the whole thing is a good example of how not to do things...fubsy.
 
Agreed, Fubsy. (This is becoming a habit! ;))

It was sold as a retirement program and then disabilities were added, then other certain "eligibilities" were added to that!

Typical government bait-and-switch scheme.

[This message has been edited by Dennis (edited August 21, 1999).]
 
Dennis, Fubsy: Isn't the essence of our gripes, generally about governmental behavior? They start out with a mission of which we generally approve. Then comes "mission creep" and we have a monstrous nightmare.

Farm parity has become farm subsidy, fer instance. Or the unanticipated side-effects (unintended consequences) of AFDC, with government-mandated single-parent households. I won't even get into the costs of Medicaid!

I believe that if SS were still limited to old-age assistance, serious disability and survivor-under-18 assistance, it could have a lower tax rate and would be adequately funded forever.

FWIW, Art
 
Art,
I like your term "mission creep". It clearly shows how "improvements" take us inexorably to "unintended consequences".

That's why I no longer trust our Congresscritters to act in our best interest. We need to get rid of the current crop of bloodsuckers and vote in some new (as yet uncorrupted) representatives.

Mission creep. A good term.
 
Are you guys aware that many hospitals wont let you take the baby home with out:
Foot Print
"Vitamin K" shot
Social Security Application
Some weird eye drops

and there was a couple other things too...

Any future kids we have is going to be home birthed.

I have an associate at work who doesnt have a social security number -
I will ask him about his life with out it and get back to you...

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"America is a melting pot, the people at the bottom get burned while all the scum floats to the top."


RAGE AGAINST THE MACHINE
The Critic formerly known as Kodiac
 
Social Security cards used to have the line NOT TO BE USED FOR IDENTIFICATION on them, the newer ones have omitted that tag line. There has been a push by the Neo-Nazies/Neo-Commies, the control freaks in Washington (may they all suffer terminal heart burn)to require all states to use the SS number as the driver's license number.

On second thought, remove the two "neo's" from the above.

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Ne Conjuge Nobiscum
"If there be treachery, let there be jehad!"



[This message has been edited by Jim V (edited August 21, 1999).]
 
Virginia already uses SS# as the DL#.
You have to jump through a hoop to use a differnet number.

Meaning: life = open book.

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"America is a melting pot, the people at the bottom get burned while all the scum floats to the top."


RAGE AGAINST THE MACHINE
The Critic formerly known as Kodiac http://pages.hotbot.com/advice/kodiac/index.html

[This message has been edited by George Hill (edited August 21, 1999).]
 
But what about the fact that when the program (SS) started, there were 16 people paying for every 1 who recieved benefits. Now, there are 3 paying for every 1 recieving.

It cant go on that way much longer. Thats one reason that it was declared UnConstitutional in its original form (FDR just waited the Supremes out...and packed the court).

Its an intergenerational pyramid scheme, and it is a bad idea. America was indeed sold a bill of goods on this one, and the Feds managaed to create a whole new welfare/dependancy class with it, thus enlarging their own power base. What makes me the maddest is that the elderly did it to themselves (and us), in many cases. I cant count the number of really old people Ive met who just love FDR...some make him out to be the Messiah. Grrrrr. Some of them get really upset when you point out the blatantly Socialist things he did. :(

No wonder the AARP is so rabidly anti-gun...they must be run by "fellow travellers" of FDR and his administration.

Dump Social Security after we find a viable replacement, but it better be !@#$% quick. Pretty soon I will have to just sign my paycheck over to a retiree.
 
Grenadier2 - Your last sentence said it all. That's been my solution to this financial mess we've gottn ourselves into. It would work as follows: If you are entitled to any type of government check due to a law passed by the boys and girls in DC such as, AFDC, farm program subsidy, medicad etc., the issuing agency would send you a document showing the amount due you and the names and addresses of other of taxpayers in you community and the amount you are entitled to collect from each to fully cover the amount due you. All you have to do is go to their front door, ring their bell and show them the offical document and they would be required " under penalty of law" to pay you. You then give them a receipt which they file at tax time and everybody lives happily everafter.

Simple and should work like a charm with no problems, at least until the next election rolls around. By the way, election time has been changed to April 16.
 
Grenadier2,

Any program to replace Social Security would still be a socialist program and subject to the whim and fancy of our government to the detriment of the people. No replacement would be the best replacement, IMO.


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John/az

"The middle of the road between the extremes of good and evil, is evil. When freedom is at stake, your silence is not golden, it's yellow..." RKBA!

http://www.countdown9199.com
 
Westex,
Wow! Great idea about elections! Force the federal government to publish an Income Statement and Balance sheet at least one month (two months?) before elections. Then we can see what we're "buying" with our taxes! Talk about accountability! :D
 
John,

Sorry, I should have been clearer...you are correct in your assesment that any program to replace SS that is run by the Feds would be more Socialism.

My intention is that any replacement would be to move everyone to a privatized system, completely removed from Federal intervention. There are many ways to do this, so I cant just say "plan x". :)

Im glad you brought that up, lest anyone think Im advocating any more Socialism. :(
 
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