So parts don't fit?

James K

Member In Memoriam
All of us are aware that the M1911 and M1911A1 service pistols, originally made by Colt, served the U.S. military for 75 years, and that adoption of a new service pistol has not lessened interest in the older gun in the civilian market. The military guns had an admirable record for reliability and parts interchangeability; the new guns, not so much.

So just how important is it that new guns of the 1911 design, made strictly for the commercial market, have interchangeable parts, or that magazines be compatible one make to another?

After all, a Remington R1, let us say, is not a GI M1911A1, it is a Remington R1. An S&W 1911 is an S&W 1911, not a military pistol. No one expects a Ruger P85 to have parts interchangeble with an S&W 4506 or a Glock 21. We all realize those are dissimilar pistols.

Yet, we seem to expect any pistol that resembles a GI M1911A1 to accept parts made for any other similar pistol, to function with common magazines, to have any part made for any other "1911" just "drop in."

Are we expecting too much? Should we accept that Kimber parts will fit guns made by Kimber, Wilson parts guns made by Wilson, and so forth? Why should Kimber parts fit Wilsons, or Colt parts fit S&W's? Or parts made by parts suppliers fit any of them?

Jim
 
Nowadays AR's have the DI, short stroke, and long stroke gas systems that don't interchange those parts among the different ones.
 
As with the AR15... so is with the 1911...

We expect parts to fit, because the platform started out standardized... Its one of the main reasons the platform gain popularity... its standardization allowed aftermarket parts and custom work.


To suddenly have 1911 models with vast differences in fitment would cause difficulties in modifications and parts replacement. People would become disillusioned to the platform... There would still be many that got one for the history and the positive aspects the pistol has on its own merits, but the aftermarket would dwindle and much interest would die. Cost of entry for achieving a custom gun would increase. You could no longer improve upon a lower model easily.


Think of the AR... would it remain popular if every or almost every maker of ARs had different buffer tube sizes, gas block mounting dimensions, receiver thread dimensions... and other ares that limited easy upgrading.

The biggest benefit of the AR over other designs would be gone.

It would no longer be more practical/versatile to just get an AR rather than say a Tavor or SCAR.


The differences between action types... DI, piston... are mostly fringe... As the DI is by far the most popular.

Even with those differences... the parts are still 90% or more interchangeable. And the parts most changed are all interchangeable... triggers, stocks...
 
One of the attractions of a 1911 is, indeed, the huge availability of parts, from many sources.
Kind of like the small block Chevy.
But if the so called 1911 is different enough not to be able to use these parts and accessories, what's the point?
If it requires proprietary parts, there's plenty of other choices to consider.
 
When I first started buying guns in the long ago 1980s I just assumed that all 1911s were the same. As a matter of fact I don’t really even remember seeing anything in the LGS other than Colts, so maybe they were the same. However, I’m sure long before that people had begun making their own “improvements” and the trend has continued.

At this point I don’t except 1911 parts to be compatible between manufactures, but still occasionally hear someone complaining about the “drop in” part they bought that doesn’t fit. So, I’m not frustrated that parts aren’t interchangeable, but it does bother me that some manufactures aren’t clear when they advertise a part leading some people to believe that they are.
 
Some parts require hand fitting regardless of what the seller of the parts claims. Putting old parts in a new pistol or vise versa could be a problem.
 
Whether or not parts from one gun fit another is of no consequence to me when purchasing a firearm. However, general parts availability is.

Since I'm not an arsenal responsible for refurbishing millions of guns for military use, I just don't see any advantage in interchangeable parts for any of my guns. It's about as meaningful to me as some hidden stamp-code on a gun that only has meaning for the manufacturer during his quality control process.

Re the AR......"different buffer tube sizes, gas block mounting dimensions...",

All of this, and more, are already variations you need to take into consideration when assembling an AR. Commercial buffer tube vs. milspec; a zillion and one different kinds of gas blocks; not to mention the huge variation in buffers and buffer weights.

There's probably more variation from one AR to another than there is between a Tanfoglio 9mm, a Sphinx AT2000 and a CZ 75B.
 
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The "1911" is a unique case, in that even though there are specs, not everyone follows those specs.
If you buy a part for a Glock, it must fit only a gun made to Glock specs by Glock.
If you buy a "1911", it might have metric parts, it might have had the design "improved" by some well-meaning person who shouldn't be messing with the design.
There have been so many changes to the original M1911, made by so many different people for so many different reasons, that I'd be amazed if any random part would fit any random gun.
I was discussing a part that is made by/for a well-known maker of "1911" pistols, that will fit only pistols made by that company. I wondered, why would you make a part that fits only your gun, and a friend asked why would, say, Glock care if a part that they made fit anything but a Glock?
To continue the auto analogy, we don't expect parts for a small-block Ford to fit a small-block Chevy, so why should Colt 1911 parts fit a Kimber 1911?
 
I think there's a big difference in parts that may need some fitting and parts which are proprietary in nature. If I have to do some minor filing on a slide stop, no big deal. But I have passed on the 1911 or 1911ish guns which have parts or designs which are proprietary in nature -- like the SW external extractor or the proprietary parts in a Springfield EMP.

I should also add that many 1911 parts are intentionally made a bit oversized for those who want a tight fit. Just file down until it fits tight.
 
Armalite Rifles,small block Chevrolet engines,Glocks, this thread is heading in
the usual direction.
By now it is unlikely that M1911 owners expect interchangeability,hoping for it is more realistic,you just buy a replacement part and if it works all is well and
if it doesn't then it's fourth and 51.
 
"...Some parts require hand fitting regardless of..." More like most parts. Drop in parts never quite fit right.
"...there are specs..." That apply to military issue kit. Not commercial.
 
"Some parts require hand fitting regardless of what the seller of the parts claims."

GI parts would fit GI guns with no fitting.

"We expect parts to fit, because the platform started out standardized... "

The M1911A1 was standardized; the S&W or Kimber or Wilson copy was not, and no government inspectors make sure of parts interchangeability.

"...there are specs... That apply to military issue kit. Not commercial."

Then why do folks think they should?

Jim
 
Think of the AR... would it remain popular if every or almost every maker of ARs had different buffer tube sizes, gas block mounting dimensions, receiver thread dimensions... and other ares that limited easy upgrading.

In the case of the AK, there is quite a bit of variation between makers and models, and most parts do require fitting, not wholly unlike the 1911.

Yet the AK design is popular and appears to be gaining on popularity.
 
All of this, and more, are already variations you need to take into consideration when assembling an AR. Commercial buffer tube vs. milspec; a zillion and one different kinds of gas blocks; not to mention the huge variation in buffers and buffer weights.

Different designs and options is not the same as no parts compatibility... in fact, you kind of make my point... all those options, and they all fit/attach to the same upper and lower receiver no matter who made them.

But there are standardized dimensions. The gas block on a standard Ar barrel is .75 and yes there are variations for bull barrel, and for larger calibers.

Point is, a .75 gas block is standardized, the bull barrel size is standardized...

What would happen if DPMS made barrels with .7 gas blocks, Colt with .725, Daniels .76, BCM .78... etc etc

There may be Mil spec buffer tubes and civilian buffer tubes... but the threads that allow you to attach it to the receiver... they are the same on both.

The barrel extension size is the same on all ARs based around the 5.56 variant dimensions, no matter the caliber it is chambered in.

What variation we have on the AR has been driven by the need to sidestep legislation... Things like Colt large pin receivers...


There's probably more variation from one AR to another than there is between a Tanfoglio 9mm, a Sphinx AT2000 and a CZ 75B.

There is a surprising amount of difference between a Tangfolio and a CZ... very little parts compatibility.


To continue the auto analogy, we don't expect parts for a small-block Ford to fit a small-block Chevy, so why should Colt 1911 parts fit a Kimber 1911?

Because those are entirely different designs... Same end result but with different design paths to get there...

Its the same as a 1911 and Glock 17 are different designs, but achieve the same goal... a locked breech semi auto pistol. You could even throw in different methods to lock the breech... or throw in a blowback into the fray... either way, you end up with a semi auto pistol, but different ways to get there.

What would be bad... is if a custom engine maker, made parts available to the public, claiming to be Chevy 350 small block Blah blah... and then they not fit on the Chevy 350 small block blah blah you have sitting in your garage.

Or say the parts on a chevy model XYZ made in California, don't fit a Chevy XYZ made in a licensed facility in Mexico or anywhere.


Some parts require hand fitting regardless of what the seller of the parts claims.

The 1911 isn't quite as standardized as the AR, and parts fitting is indeed a thing that often needs done.

Most that buy aftermarket parts are looking to improve something, usually accuracy, so making parts fit a little tight and need fitting aids in achieving this goal.


The M1911A1 was standardized; the S&W or Kimber or Wilson copy was not, and no government inspectors make sure of parts interchangeability.

True... but the manufacturers know that one of the major reasons to own a 1911 is the ability to customize it, aided by a large availability of aftermarket parts. They also know the areas these parts focus on... So they attempt to keep those areas close to the original specs.


Its not so much that it is expected that you can completely disassemble pistols from , Kimber, Springfield, Colt, etc... throw the parts into a box, shake em up, and then randomly grab parts and build three functioning pistols again.

Its more akin to... We expect the deign to conform to a standardized spec and design closely enough that we can pick and choose custom parts that will work with minor fitting.

That parts will more or less be in the same place and work the same... ad that the design will not be altered so radically that major components are in essence completely different designs.

They expect, for example... That the magwell will be the same size and the mag catch will be located in the same spot and work the same way, so that any brand magazine will fit.


The 1911 isn't perfectly standardized between manufacturers, but the basic design and specs are close enough in line that on the whole, getting aftermarket parts is not an exercise in massive frustration.



In the case of the AK, there is quite a bit of variation between makers and models, and most parts do require fitting, not wholly unlike the 1911.

Yet the AK design is popular and appears to be gaining on popularity.

I will point to my above statement about avoiding legislation...

People also don't expect parts from an AK made in country A, by company B, to go inline with an AK made in country C by company D.

They do expect parts claiming to be for a certain model work for that model.

Also, Aks tend to be customised much less functionally... But things like the trigger and bolt do tend to stay the same regardless of other differences. The side rail on the receiver used to mount optics, is expected to work with any accessories designed for the rail, no matter who made the rail or accessories.

And I think their popularity is driven by fad like causes, the AK reputation, and the cheapness of the platform... Not the desire to build up a highly custom gun. Most changes tend to the cosmetic... Highly custom guns tend to be made as whole rifles. most I see are attempts to make them more modern and compatible with modern sights/scopes/accessories, most which are designed with the AR in mind.
 
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Yet the AK design is popular and appears to be gaining on popularity.

Where? In third world countries - yes. In more sophisticated countries - no. The AK, it's fire control parts and receiver is crude and clunky. It's easy to take some parts off of one type of AK and use them on another - most likely, you can make it work, regardless of the differences in the thickness of the receivers, thickness of the barrels, different trigger types and different bolt types. You can do this because the tolerances are about one-tenth of the thickness of a pinky finger...give or take.
 
And I think their popularity is driven by fad like causes, the AK reputation, and the cheapness of the platform... Not the desire to build up a highly custom gun.

It's hard to call the platform cheap anymore (at least on the commercial US market). You can buy a decent AR for less than most AKs these days.

Where? In third world countries - yes. In more sophisticated countries - no.

Witness the number of US manufacturers getting into the AK business, married with rising prices (indicative of demand). There is no doubt that there is an increase in the popularity of AK rifles on the US market.

One could try to make the argument that this is due only to Russian sanctions, but the fact is that new Saiga rifles were only a small portion of the market, and US production of AKs began well before sanctions were announced.
 
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