HALLAUSTIN
New member
Is speed the sole factor here? Does weight come into play? I know it's all about putting the bullet in the right place but I'm trying to learn a bit more about hydrostatic shock.
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So hydrostatic shock...
- Thread starter HALLAUSTIN
- Start date
bamaranger
New member
shock
I think the idea of a bullet creating some type of shock wave the short circuits a critters system via sometype of "pulse" is largely exaggerated.
We can see examples of terrible explosive wounds on smaller critters with very fast small bullets, and similar damage on larger critters with really large caliber (.50BMG) but beyond those extremes, many bullet wounds look a lot like another regardless of caliber. And some solidly hit animals drop at the shot, others sprint away wildly, regardless of caliber.
I believe the condition of the animal (relaxed v. adrenalin charged) and the nature of the shot (close range with loud blast v. longer range and quieter), as well as whether or not the central nervous system is disrupted, play largely into how an animal behaves when struck. I think shots close to the spine, can drop an animal due to a shock to the spinal cord, but undamaged, an animal can recover its feet and escape from wound that does not damage the spine or underlying organs. I also believe an animal can drop due to major shoulder bones or hips being broken, but I suspect this is a balance thing and not so much blow. Mortally wounded shoulder or hip shot animals can recover to their feet to cover some distance before expiring. Note here I mean through a single shoulder or hip.
I think the idea of a bullet creating some type of shock wave the short circuits a critters system via sometype of "pulse" is largely exaggerated.
We can see examples of terrible explosive wounds on smaller critters with very fast small bullets, and similar damage on larger critters with really large caliber (.50BMG) but beyond those extremes, many bullet wounds look a lot like another regardless of caliber. And some solidly hit animals drop at the shot, others sprint away wildly, regardless of caliber.
I believe the condition of the animal (relaxed v. adrenalin charged) and the nature of the shot (close range with loud blast v. longer range and quieter), as well as whether or not the central nervous system is disrupted, play largely into how an animal behaves when struck. I think shots close to the spine, can drop an animal due to a shock to the spinal cord, but undamaged, an animal can recover its feet and escape from wound that does not damage the spine or underlying organs. I also believe an animal can drop due to major shoulder bones or hips being broken, but I suspect this is a balance thing and not so much blow. Mortally wounded shoulder or hip shot animals can recover to their feet to cover some distance before expiring. Note here I mean through a single shoulder or hip.
I shoot lots of hogs and can plainly state that a hog shot through the neck with a small fast caliber is more likely to drop quickly, than one shot through the lungs with a large caliber. The shock to the CNS is a big factor in dropping one on the spot. I love more fragile bullets for this sort of shooting, especially the Hornady SST. When I shoot large calibers, I try for shots through the front shoulders to stop them....but they do live longer when shot in this manner.
HALLAUSTIN
New member
I found this, it was a bit long but a nice read. Old Stony have you neck shot any hogs with a larger caliber?
http://www.ballisticstudies.com/Knowledgebase/Effective+Game+Killing.html
http://www.ballisticstudies.com/Knowledgebase/Effective+Game+Killing.html
ShootistPRS
New member
"hydrostatic" shock is a name given to an event caused by the supersonic movement of fluids by a fast moving projectile. You said you wanted to learn about it well this is the truth:
"hydrostatic" shock is neither a static event nor is it a shock. The bodies of animals is mostly salt water. There are fibers and organs that are flexible and suspended in and filled with fluids. When a bullet of sufficient diameter enters a body at supersonic speeds there are a few things that happen very quickly. The leading edge shock wave pushes stuff away from the path of the bullet. Experts call this the temporary wound channel but there is little wounding taking place. This is a dynamic and elastic motion and rarely causes more than a bruise in the local area. At the same time the bullet itself ruptures tissues as it goes through them. This causes bleeding and deep tissue damage. This is what kills the animal. While that is happening the back of the bullet drags a cavitation wave behind it that lowers the pressure momentarily causing "bubbles" similar to boiling but without the heat. This tends to cause the tissues to pull back into the lower pressure behind the bullet collapsing the temporary wound channel and slightly increasing the bruising.
Normally the only killing mechanism is the actual hole and damage that the bullet makes as it cuts through the tissues. There are times - however rare they are that the compression wave hits the heart at the instant it is compressing and causes very high blood pressure throughout the animals vascular system that sometimes causes hemorrhage in the brain. The animal collapses so fast that it appears to be knocked over by the impact.
We can see the hydrostatic shock is neither static (without movement or change) nor a reliable killer. It is reliant on two things;
1. speed over the speed of sound
2. the physical size of the projectile
If you can imagine a sewing needle at 20,000 feet per second going through a deer you can "see" that there would be very little tissue movement and very little damage to organs. The needle would go right through and the animal might or might not be aware that it was shot. The small wound would heal in a day or so and the animal would be unaffected.
a 30 caliber bullet hitting the animal at 2300 fps will produce a large frontal compression and cut a hole through tissues big enough to provide for a loss of blood that will kill the animal.
A 12 pound bowling ball traveling at 300 fps will break bones and cause huge ruptures in tissues that will kill the animal quickly even though it is not travelling anywhere near the speed of sound. The internal damage will be caused by broken bones cutting and tearing the inside of the animal.
The truth behind "hydrostatic shock" is that it is a made up name for a reaction that has little value in the quick and clean killing of a game animal.
I hope this gives you the information that you are looking for.
"hydrostatic" shock is neither a static event nor is it a shock. The bodies of animals is mostly salt water. There are fibers and organs that are flexible and suspended in and filled with fluids. When a bullet of sufficient diameter enters a body at supersonic speeds there are a few things that happen very quickly. The leading edge shock wave pushes stuff away from the path of the bullet. Experts call this the temporary wound channel but there is little wounding taking place. This is a dynamic and elastic motion and rarely causes more than a bruise in the local area. At the same time the bullet itself ruptures tissues as it goes through them. This causes bleeding and deep tissue damage. This is what kills the animal. While that is happening the back of the bullet drags a cavitation wave behind it that lowers the pressure momentarily causing "bubbles" similar to boiling but without the heat. This tends to cause the tissues to pull back into the lower pressure behind the bullet collapsing the temporary wound channel and slightly increasing the bruising.
Normally the only killing mechanism is the actual hole and damage that the bullet makes as it cuts through the tissues. There are times - however rare they are that the compression wave hits the heart at the instant it is compressing and causes very high blood pressure throughout the animals vascular system that sometimes causes hemorrhage in the brain. The animal collapses so fast that it appears to be knocked over by the impact.
We can see the hydrostatic shock is neither static (without movement or change) nor a reliable killer. It is reliant on two things;
1. speed over the speed of sound
2. the physical size of the projectile
If you can imagine a sewing needle at 20,000 feet per second going through a deer you can "see" that there would be very little tissue movement and very little damage to organs. The needle would go right through and the animal might or might not be aware that it was shot. The small wound would heal in a day or so and the animal would be unaffected.
a 30 caliber bullet hitting the animal at 2300 fps will produce a large frontal compression and cut a hole through tissues big enough to provide for a loss of blood that will kill the animal.
A 12 pound bowling ball traveling at 300 fps will break bones and cause huge ruptures in tissues that will kill the animal quickly even though it is not travelling anywhere near the speed of sound. The internal damage will be caused by broken bones cutting and tearing the inside of the animal.
The truth behind "hydrostatic shock" is that it is a made up name for a reaction that has little value in the quick and clean killing of a game animal.
I hope this gives you the information that you are looking for.
603Country
New member
P.O. Ackley sang the praises of the 220 Swift and hydrostatic shock when used on deer. So, I took my 220 Swift deer hunting (60 gr Nosler SBB and Sierra 63 gr SMP). I shot a few deer that dropped like they had been electrocuted and I shot a few that didn't seem to notice that I had shot them. I finally decided that if the hydrostatic shock isn't applied to the proper place, it isn't much use. Perhaps if a fellow used a big enough bullet at a fast enough velocity (270 or 257 Wby), hydrostatic shock can be 'applied' over a larger area and will be more effective. That said, nothing I ever used was more effective on deer than my old 35 Remington, and I don't expect that it was so effective due to hydrostatic shock.
A big fast bullet kills better than a little fast bullet, and is probably a bit less dependent on the best of bullet placement.
A big fast bullet kills better than a little fast bullet, and is probably a bit less dependent on the best of bullet placement.
FrankenMauser
New member
I'm a believer in the theory. I've seen it first-hand.
...But it doesn't seem to be predictable.
Speed seems to be necessary. From what I've seen, I'd say 2,600 fps or faster.
And I've never seen it with anything but expanding bullets.
But, I think people get a little too hung up on the 'nervous system disruption' and forget about the rest of the concept, whereby the hydraulic pressure wave damages soft tissues.
In ... 2009, I think, I shot an antelope with a .277" 130 gr Remington Core-Lokt. Clean double-lung. Small entry. Small exit (~.54 cal). No fragments to speak of.
Liver was "shattered" from the shock wave -- literally torn into chunks with radiating lines of cleavage reminiscent of it having been frozen and smacked with a hammer. Quick death due to massive internal bleeding and hypoxia, but not a "DRT" or any indication of nervous system disruption.
That liver was a surprising find in the gut cavity of an animal that had no damage to the diaphragm or guts.
Come to think of it, that wasn't the first one, either.
In 2008, one of my brothers punched a broad-side antelope right through the heart with a .277" 140 gr Nosler Ballistic Tip (hunting version). That was one of the most impressive DRT shots I've seen. That speed goat dropped like a rock and never so much as twitched after it hit the ground.
In that case, I do believe there was nervous system disruption, but the bigger surprise came from the Ballistic Tip seeming to penetrate through all of the muscle and then "detonate" just outside the heart in the left lung. The base continued through the animal and exited with a ~.70 caliber hole.
Heart and lungs were just soup with some bullet fragments mixed in. The liver, just as we would find the next year, was absolutely "shattered", even though no bullet fragments had touched it and it was on the other side of the diaphragm.
And, since then, there have been a few more speed goats and elk that showed signs of the shock wave doing significant damage.
I have never seen a "tough" bullet do it, though -- things like Nosler Partitions, Norma Oryx, etc.
And even nearly identical shots on the same type of game, with bullets that have gone "hydrostatic" in the past, may not give the same results.
All anecdotal evidence and my opinion... Take it for whatever it's worth to you.
...But it doesn't seem to be predictable.
Speed seems to be necessary. From what I've seen, I'd say 2,600 fps or faster.
And I've never seen it with anything but expanding bullets.
But, I think people get a little too hung up on the 'nervous system disruption' and forget about the rest of the concept, whereby the hydraulic pressure wave damages soft tissues.
In ... 2009, I think, I shot an antelope with a .277" 130 gr Remington Core-Lokt. Clean double-lung. Small entry. Small exit (~.54 cal). No fragments to speak of.
Liver was "shattered" from the shock wave -- literally torn into chunks with radiating lines of cleavage reminiscent of it having been frozen and smacked with a hammer. Quick death due to massive internal bleeding and hypoxia, but not a "DRT" or any indication of nervous system disruption.
That liver was a surprising find in the gut cavity of an animal that had no damage to the diaphragm or guts.
Come to think of it, that wasn't the first one, either.
In 2008, one of my brothers punched a broad-side antelope right through the heart with a .277" 140 gr Nosler Ballistic Tip (hunting version). That was one of the most impressive DRT shots I've seen. That speed goat dropped like a rock and never so much as twitched after it hit the ground.
In that case, I do believe there was nervous system disruption, but the bigger surprise came from the Ballistic Tip seeming to penetrate through all of the muscle and then "detonate" just outside the heart in the left lung. The base continued through the animal and exited with a ~.70 caliber hole.
Heart and lungs were just soup with some bullet fragments mixed in. The liver, just as we would find the next year, was absolutely "shattered", even though no bullet fragments had touched it and it was on the other side of the diaphragm.
And, since then, there have been a few more speed goats and elk that showed signs of the shock wave doing significant damage.
I have never seen a "tough" bullet do it, though -- things like Nosler Partitions, Norma Oryx, etc.
And even nearly identical shots on the same type of game, with bullets that have gone "hydrostatic" in the past, may not give the same results.
All anecdotal evidence and my opinion... Take it for whatever it's worth to you.
Speed AND bullet construction are the key. A FMJ that does not expand doesn't cause much hydrostatic shock. A soft bullet designed to expand at relatively slow speed can cause a lot of damage at slower speeds.
The key is to understand what the bullet you are using is designed to do and not ask it to do something it wasn't meant to do.
There are 2 schools of thought, both work, both have negatives. Some guys like a softer bullet that expands violently. If put into a game animals vitals those bullets take down game quickly. Softer bullets work very well at longer ranges where they will still expand after slowing down. But if pushed too fast will blow up at close ranges and not give enough penetration to reach vital organs. They may not be the best choice for larger game where bullets may have to penetrate 2-3' in order to hit vitals. Especially if shot from less than perfect angles. Soft bullets CAN penetrate well enough if using heavy for caliber bullets fired at moderate speeds.
The other school of thought is to use a harder bullet that penetrates deep. Those bullets tend to work, but rarely put game down in their tracks because of less hydrostatic shock. They are not the best choice for long range shots. After slowing down they may expand very little and cause little damage. But are generally considered a good choice on larger game.
The cartridge used is important. A soft 150 gr bullet fired at 3300 fps from a magnum rifle would actually be a poor choice on deer inside of 100 yards. Too much expansion, too little penetration. But the same bullet fired from a 308 at 2800 fps would work great.
The key is to understand what the bullet you are using is designed to do and not ask it to do something it wasn't meant to do.
There are 2 schools of thought, both work, both have negatives. Some guys like a softer bullet that expands violently. If put into a game animals vitals those bullets take down game quickly. Softer bullets work very well at longer ranges where they will still expand after slowing down. But if pushed too fast will blow up at close ranges and not give enough penetration to reach vital organs. They may not be the best choice for larger game where bullets may have to penetrate 2-3' in order to hit vitals. Especially if shot from less than perfect angles. Soft bullets CAN penetrate well enough if using heavy for caliber bullets fired at moderate speeds.
The other school of thought is to use a harder bullet that penetrates deep. Those bullets tend to work, but rarely put game down in their tracks because of less hydrostatic shock. They are not the best choice for long range shots. After slowing down they may expand very little and cause little damage. But are generally considered a good choice on larger game.
The cartridge used is important. A soft 150 gr bullet fired at 3300 fps from a magnum rifle would actually be a poor choice on deer inside of 100 yards. Too much expansion, too little penetration. But the same bullet fired from a 308 at 2800 fps would work great.
Not an exact science, that's for sure. I shot a doe through both lungs broadside with a 150 grain Hornady, whatever Weatherby used in their factory loads. Supposed to be 3500 muzzle. I was lucky to find the deer since she ran a couple of hundred yards with little to no blood. Bullet went straight through, no expansion. The deer I had shot previously pretty much never moved another muscle. I'm sure it just slipped between the ribs. That is how the stories get started about bullets that go through a deer too fast to expand, although I can't say that I buy that.
Not an exact science, that's for sure. I shot a doe through both lungs broadside with a 150 grain Hornady, whatever Weatherby used in their factory loads. Supposed to be 3500 muzzle. I was lucky to find the deer since she ran a couple of hundred yards with little to no blood. Bullet went straight through, no expansion. The deer I had shot previously pretty much never moved another muscle. I'm sure it just slipped between the ribs. That is how the stories get started about bullets that go through a deer too fast to expand, although I can't say that I buy that.
When I was younger I jumped a BIG doe on the way to my stand. I took one of those shots that you shouldn't take and effectively instinct shot it with a .270 (I think some Winchester Failsafe ammo back in the day). It was quartering away and it was a lucky shot. The thing ran about 200 yards through some heavy brush and it was not easy to track as there was very little blood for the first 50-75 yards. When I gutted it I could not identify much in the way of the lungs or heart - they kind of "poured" out. Utterly amazed at how far that deer had run. Of course it was startled so that might have had something to do with it.
FrankenMauser
New member
Oh, I just remembered another really surprising one.
Don't recall who shot it, or what year it was, so I'm not sure what the bullet was. (But likely 7.7x58mm Jap, .270 Win, or .30-06.)
Doe antelope, quartering heart/lung shot.
Don't think it was a DRT.
When we went to field-dress her the heart and lungs were soup. Not much of a surprise.
But the liver and kidneys were ruptured. They looked like they had "popped" like over-inflated beach balls. The kidneys blew us away. I believe cornbush (TFL member / my brother) has a picture of those kidneys somewhere.
It was an interesting find.
Don't recall who shot it, or what year it was, so I'm not sure what the bullet was. (But likely 7.7x58mm Jap, .270 Win, or .30-06.)
Doe antelope, quartering heart/lung shot.
Don't think it was a DRT.
When we went to field-dress her the heart and lungs were soup. Not much of a surprise.
But the liver and kidneys were ruptured. They looked like they had "popped" like over-inflated beach balls. The kidneys blew us away. I believe cornbush (TFL member / my brother) has a picture of those kidneys somewhere.
It was an interesting find.
When I was younger I jumped a BIG doe on the way to my stand. I took one of those shots that you shouldn't take and effectively instinct shot it with a .270 (I think some Winchester Failsafe ammo back in the day). It was quartering away and it was a lucky shot. The thing ran about 200 yards through some heavy brush and it was not easy to track as there was very little blood for the first 50-75 yards. When I gutted it I could not identify much in the way of the lungs or heart - they kind of "poured" out. Utterly amazed at how far that deer had run. Of course it was startled so that might have had something to do with it.
The thing about the "autopsy" on the deer shot with the 300 WBY was that there was really no internal damage other than the caliber size hole.
She ran until her lungs filled up. That was it. More like being shot with an arrow using a field point.
Hydro-static-shock involves the shock, or pounding, those tissues receive when water is forced aside by explosive compression of tissues because of impact. In truth, hydrostatic shock is horribly overrated. Any bullet causes impact and "shock" as it passes through and displaces water and tissue, but it may be minimal to almost non existent. Some rounds will literally explode into fragments.
Shock itself can cause bruising and breakage of small blood vessels or other tissues, but that doesn't really make much difference until you have increased your velocities between levels by 300 fps, maybe. the .45 acp is about 850 fps and the colt is about 1,100, and if you check with most people, they will agree that they will both cause about as much damage in a solid slug. It takes a large increase in velocity for a solid slug to be improved by velocity alone.
Frankly, i feel that there are other more important things to consider. Bullet design, and whether or not the ammunition is appropriate for the expected use. Shock is a nice thing, it causes pain, bleeding, etc, but what really kills things/people is either destruction of organs or vital areas, or bleeding. No matter how much shock you put into a chunk of butt with a varmint cartridge, tearing out a half pound of meat won't kill a man. same thing goes for hitting him in the butt with anything, pretty much.
When you get chest cavity hits, punch holes through innards and lungs, veins, etc, you have started the ball rolling. an expanding bullet makes the hole bigger and it displaces more water as it goes through. the faster the bullet is moving, the more violently that water is displaced. So, a mushrooming bullet that is moving faster will almost inevitably cause more damage than an otherwise identical, slower, non expanding round.
I feel like a pistol round becomes effective when it passes 1,000 for example, it needs a certain level of speed and energy to expand a bullet and poke a big hole.
A rifle round is different, bottle necked, long, heavy, narrow bullets, I feel that a standard rifle round needs about 2,000 fps to really expand and add anything to the wounding. Low velocity, non expanding rounds aren't even as good as being hit by an arrow. The .30 carbine or .38 special lead load are notorious for ineffectiveness. It left little holes like a screwdriver would leave. The typical deer broadhead cuts a bleeding channel through the tissues over an inch in diameter. No need for high velocity impact, good god, that thing rips a hole through a deer that can bleed it out in a matter of minutes in a good area.
Once you reach a certain threshold of velocity, construction, point of impact, the shock, or hammering effect can cause serious, serious damage. Look at a prairie dog or ground hog that was shot with a .22-250. That is all about high velocity hydrostatic shock. then, shoot the next one with a plain .44 magnum. You can dump an enormous amount of energy into a small area, or you can let it escape out the back door.
Shock itself can cause bruising and breakage of small blood vessels or other tissues, but that doesn't really make much difference until you have increased your velocities between levels by 300 fps, maybe. the .45 acp is about 850 fps and the colt is about 1,100, and if you check with most people, they will agree that they will both cause about as much damage in a solid slug. It takes a large increase in velocity for a solid slug to be improved by velocity alone.
Frankly, i feel that there are other more important things to consider. Bullet design, and whether or not the ammunition is appropriate for the expected use. Shock is a nice thing, it causes pain, bleeding, etc, but what really kills things/people is either destruction of organs or vital areas, or bleeding. No matter how much shock you put into a chunk of butt with a varmint cartridge, tearing out a half pound of meat won't kill a man. same thing goes for hitting him in the butt with anything, pretty much.
When you get chest cavity hits, punch holes through innards and lungs, veins, etc, you have started the ball rolling. an expanding bullet makes the hole bigger and it displaces more water as it goes through. the faster the bullet is moving, the more violently that water is displaced. So, a mushrooming bullet that is moving faster will almost inevitably cause more damage than an otherwise identical, slower, non expanding round.
I feel like a pistol round becomes effective when it passes 1,000 for example, it needs a certain level of speed and energy to expand a bullet and poke a big hole.
A rifle round is different, bottle necked, long, heavy, narrow bullets, I feel that a standard rifle round needs about 2,000 fps to really expand and add anything to the wounding. Low velocity, non expanding rounds aren't even as good as being hit by an arrow. The .30 carbine or .38 special lead load are notorious for ineffectiveness. It left little holes like a screwdriver would leave. The typical deer broadhead cuts a bleeding channel through the tissues over an inch in diameter. No need for high velocity impact, good god, that thing rips a hole through a deer that can bleed it out in a matter of minutes in a good area.
Once you reach a certain threshold of velocity, construction, point of impact, the shock, or hammering effect can cause serious, serious damage. Look at a prairie dog or ground hog that was shot with a .22-250. That is all about high velocity hydrostatic shock. then, shoot the next one with a plain .44 magnum. You can dump an enormous amount of energy into a small area, or you can let it escape out the back door.
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Sure Shot Mc Gee
New member
Speed has more to do with hydro-static shock than bullet weight. I found 3200 fps at muzzle is the magic number I strive to get my 243/270/25-06 up too and exceed if possible.
ShootistPRS
New member
For anyone who wants real test results I suggest reading the foremost experts studies on the subject. His name is Dr. Martin Fackler. His obituary can be found here.
One of his articles on the myths and lies of wound ballistics can be found here.
You are free to disagree with the facts that this surgeon and scientist has provided the shooting industry if you think you know more than someone with his involvement in the study of terminal ballistics. I choose to defer to his research and knowledge.
One of his articles on the myths and lies of wound ballistics can be found here.
You are free to disagree with the facts that this surgeon and scientist has provided the shooting industry if you think you know more than someone with his involvement in the study of terminal ballistics. I choose to defer to his research and knowledge.
Hall,Austin.....I've shot them in most spots with a myriad of calibers, but the neck seems to be the easiest spot for me to drop them quickly. Using 45/70's I normally just shoot them through the front shoulders. I really don't study the dynamics of bullets and calibers much....I just shoot'em and move on.
I think that there's something to the idea of shock doing damage. Witness the occasional story of a little league kid taking a baseball to the chest and having heart arrhythmia.
I think it depends where it hits you. I think of the blood-shot meat that I cut away from wound channels. I don't think that the busted capillaries are going to be fatal, but a bruise of damaged flesh is still a bruise. I think that if that shock bruised a heart or a lung or an aorta on the way through, that can't help.
I think it depends where it hits you. I think of the blood-shot meat that I cut away from wound channels. I don't think that the busted capillaries are going to be fatal, but a bruise of damaged flesh is still a bruise. I think that if that shock bruised a heart or a lung or an aorta on the way through, that can't help.
There is another thing to consider, every bullet impact severs nerves. While a huge temporary cavity will damage some tissues such as veins, it will also tear apart fragile nerve tissues.
After carefully considering all of the amazing things that bullets do, I'm left wondering, how in heck do those things manage to get up and run away? you ought to be able to hit a deer in the ankle and have it die before it hits the ground! Stupid critters didn't get the memo.
After carefully considering all of the amazing things that bullets do, I'm left wondering, how in heck do those things manage to get up and run away? you ought to be able to hit a deer in the ankle and have it die before it hits the ground! Stupid critters didn't get the memo.