So do we agree here or not?

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Ok so my buddy has been banned from tfl. My post has been closed. But i guess that really doesnt make a bit of difference. What I want to know is do we all agree here that the government has no business passing laws to rob us of our second amendment rights? Do we agree that the second amendment is a God given right? Do we all agree that without the second amendment all other rights are doomed to be taken from us as well? I guess what i want to know is..if you people are willing to give up your rights a little at a time.
I also want to know if you people really believe the government has our best interest in mind? Do you also believe that the ultimate goal of this administration is anything less than confiscation of all privately owned firearms? If you believe as i do then why should i believe they wouldnt use any means necessary to confiscate them?
I have drawn flack for my posts on this board, but i must say i dont care what anyone thinks of my posts, or of me for that matter. What i do care about is this; I believe the government of this country would have me unarmed and defenseless. I believe that any attempt to disarm an american citizen is an act of aggression and will treat it accordingly. I dont care who tries to take my freedom from me whether they be govt agents in black suits,or some foreign guys or americans in un blue,whoever, is of no consequence. They will be dealt with in a swift and decisive manner. Yeah yeah i know,according to some people an armed resistance is doomed to fail. Well guess what ..if it comes to that i dont expect to win only to fight for what i believe to be right.
I may be called a fanatic, but i dont think i fit that category. I am just a regular guy whos sick of people "doing whats best for me" im tired of my rights being taken slowly, as i watch powerless to do anything about it. One thing is for certain there are many people like me who will not be pushed too much more before......

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Luke Swenson

GIVE ME LIBERTY OR GIVE ME DEATH!!!!!!!!
 
Watcher,

The incremental, pre-emptive, freedom-robbing, big brother process that we are going through is a MAJOR frustration to those of us who recognize that the human family thrives on self determination, and freedom.

It's one of those itches that you have in that one spot in the middle of your back that you just can't seem to reach or pacify.

The danger of this tact that is robbing us of our rights is that it moves so slowly that we (generally speaking) grow used to the newly imposed regulations because they are just barely acceptable. At the same time our line in the sand moves (unknowingly) that same distance. Thus, we are always just out of reach of the action that would take us back to the mode of true self-determination.

A line drawn in the sand is a committment with a wimp-clause, therefore no committment at all, just posturing.

There are many who have drawn that line, but there are few who have chisled it in rock.


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John/az

"The middle of the road between the extremes of good and evil, is evil. When freedom is at stake, your silence is not golden, it's yellow..." RKBA!

www.quixtar.com
referal #2005932
 
Watcher & John,
You two are so right.

Until recently I often toed that line in the sand as well, and stepped back as they moved it back, always cooperating with the law, if not the government. I maintained that I refused to be a whipped dog and would fight when they came for my rights. Now, I like TFL, but that is a popular theme here as well. Folks here are really interested in middle-class respectability, which I can certainly understand. Heck, I'm a devoted member of my kids' PTA.

But one day not too long ago, while I was writing a check to pay my yearly self-defense tax (aka, carry permit renewal fee), and while I was contemplating the purchase of a new pistol (and all of the registration that goes with it), it became clear that I was a whipped dog, that those 2nd Amendment rights have already been infringed, that the government has criminalized regular folks with the stroke of a pen.

And we all let it happen.

So now on a lot of boards I see messages like, "Well, I'll register so I can remain law abiding, but I'll never let them confiscate my guns. If it comes to that, I'll fight it however I have to." But that's obviously B.S. By then it just might be too late.

So what's more difficult? Admitting we're already whipped into submission, then trying to turn the process around without losing more ground? Or letting them take everything and then trying to win it back?

Our ol buddy Ruger may have shouted a little louder than a lot of us, but he also didn't need a consensus to proclaim that if it looks like sewage, smells like sewage, and tastes like sewage, it ain't apple pie ;)
 
Watcher:

I understand your frustration, and agree with you whole heartedly. There are many Americans like yourself who have yet to bend over to the political correctness (leftist propaganda) that is being forced upon us on a daily basis. I am included in that resistance.

Once upon a time we referred to our government as, "Uncle Sam", but now we refer to this same image as "Big Brother". That's a very scarey thought. Instead of an image to look up to when we need help, we now have an image who wants to butt their nose into every aspect of our personal lives...Big Brother. It's so very true, that name. Our government is no longer "by the people, for the people".

What's even more frightening is the infiltration of this political leftist propaganda into the thought processes of your average American, including a growing number of gun owners. This influence has created impotence, cowardice, complacency, and apathy among our ranks. Standing on principles seems a thing of the past, doesn't it? And those who stand on principles seem like whackos or extremists, don't they?

Makes you even question your own motives, your own principles, doesn't it? Well that's a part of the leftist's objectives too. And it's working. Slowly, gradually, manipulating your thoughts, changing you into a socialist puppet. The leftist agenda (some will call this rightfully so, a conspiracy) can have no resistance to accomplish their objectives. The thought provoking process through a myriad of various methods of propaganda has even helped those influenced by it believe that they are merely part of the process of "evolution", or "coincidence". Most, flatly deny any type of conspiratorial element.

If you study the history of several different regimes over hundreds of years, you will learn that history is repeating itself here in America. But most are either to lazy, or to "intelligent" to take the effort to actually verify that fact. They want an exhaustive explanation of your findings, but can't seem to lift a single finger to find out for themselves. You see, all the proof of where this great country is heading, is already written...in history. The same tactics, the same strategies, the same rhetoric, the same propaganda, and the same objectives is evident in our era, today. Being used by different souls today to ultimately reach the same objectives as their historic leftist predecessors of olden times. Recognizing these facts, pointing them out, makes you no less a whacko however, in the eyes of those influenced by years of propaganda, and social standards imposed upon them by this very influence.

For some, history isn't proof that the same objectives are underway here today, even though history gleams a mirror image of what is happening all around us today. We are either too sophisticated or to naive to look further than our preverbial noses to see that truth. And yet, we are being sufficated by this very influence. Those complacent souls just continue to take even more shallow breaths, as they try to become more apart of this enveloping restrictive society of fools.

So my friend, when you begin to think your comrades are few, just believe that there is a much larger resistance movement out there than meets the eye. And count yourself as one of them, one of many. America's freedom will live, it lives in the hearts of those of us that would lay down our lives to protect it for all.

And those moderators and administrators on this site are among us, not against us. But they have a responsibilty to hold the reins of our resolve, so as not to expose it to those that may want to exploit or deny us our strengths.

Hang tough my friend. Understand that we are dealing with a communication media which has many eyes.
 
OK, so you (and I) are ticked off. What are you going to do about it? The friends we have (and we have many) will not support you in a guerilla war against the government. And make no mistake. That would bring a crackdown on all gun owners that would make the current laws look easy.

It is easy to talk, but...

Are you prepared to attack military and police posts? Are you prepared to use small arms against tanks and attack helicopters? Do you think your AR-15 will hack it against a 105mm howitzer beehive round or a tactical strike fighter with napalm? Are you prepared to have your family interned or executed if you refuse to surrender? Are you in top shape? Can you hike 30 miles or more a day? Can you lug 100 pound ammo cases? Can you fire a captured mortar? Can you use encryption systems for communications? Do you know how to make or use explosives? Can you kill a man with a knife without letting him make a sound?

Every member of the Armed Forces is sworn to defend the constitution against "all enemies, domestic and foreign" and you would be a domestic enemy by trying to depose the elected and lawful government.

I know this sounds harsh, but it is reality. You have neither the money, the resources, the manpower, or the political and propaganda skills to take over and run the country. And the loudmouth idiots who babble endlessly about rights and won't exercise the right to vote are the worst. You know who you are, and I have no respect for you whatsoever. If you are too damn lazy to drag yourself to the polling place, how in hell are you going to take to the hills and fight a war?

I am going to fight the gun grabbers by every legal means available. I will use the newspapers, radio, TV (if possible), to spread the word that there are responsible gun owners. And I will vote for the best reasonable candidate in every election. I will not vote for some third or fourth party candidate who has not a bat's chance in Hades of winning and give an extra vote to my enemy.

And besides, I am a federal retiree and revolutionary governments are notoriously bad about keeping up pension payments.

Jim
 
Never make the mistake of believing a guerilla war cannot be won. Ever hear of Vietnam or Afganistan? Rebels with WW1 and WW2 weapons drove the Russian miltary with all its superior weaponry out of its contry.
When people are fighting for their freedom they can do mighty things. There are many out there who think as you do but do not speak up. Some of those are members of the military.
 
Jim,

I believe that those things are not needed to conduct guerilla warfare.

Didn't Gandhi (sp?) conduct a peaceful guerilla war?

But, I will not air my views here, should I have been thinking about how I would go about bringing a halt to this infuriating incrementalism that inches us into servitude.

Suffice it to say, that there are way other than a trained army of insurection.

------------------
John/az

"The middle of the road between the extremes of good and evil, is evil. When freedom is at stake, your silence is not golden, it's yellow..." RKBA!

www.quixtar.com
referal #2005932
 
Gandhi's policy of peaceful and passive resistance works if:

1. You have the vast majority of the people on your side or benevolently neutral.

2. You have a free press which is either on your side or willing to take on the government.

3. You have a government that has a viable opposition willing to oppose official policy.

4. You have a public with the vote able to throw out the government.

5. You have a government with a conscience.

Summary: Gandhi would have been road kill in Soviet Russia or Nazi Germany.

Jim
 
Jim,
I believe we still have points 1 and 4 of your post. I think the vast neutral pool are still on our side. (ie, they are against the government laying down the terms of our existence). Day in and day out, the media hammers on the inanimate, and ignores the person behind the gun, steering wheel or whatever. I guess what I'm saying here, is how do we make that majority see what is going on? The other side is gaining ground at an incredible rate. Look at the misdemanor domestic violence law and how it applies. No one wants a beer swilling wife beater to shoot his spouse, but they don't see that the same law prevents a guy, going through a seperation, whose spouse slaps him with a restraining order, from getting behind the stick of a fighter plane. The laws are going from the sublime to the ridiculous.

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CCW for Ohio action site.
http://www.ofcc.net
 
Jim,

Concerning your list of qualifications and skills needed to fight sucessfully:

If the Founding Fathers had thought the same way, we would probably still be speaking the king's english.

When an individual firmly stands on principle, it doesn't matter what the odds are.

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John/az

"The middle of the road between the extremes of good and evil, is evil. When freedom is at stake, your silence is not golden, it's yellow..." RKBA!

www.quixtar.com
referal #2005932




[This message has been edited by John/az2 (edited October 05, 1999).]
 
There are still "four boxes": soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. We have not yet truly used the jury box, so there's no need yet to use the final box. Don't give up yet: start the lawsuits!

We need a flood of lawsuits covering:
- Carry across state lines
- End permit denials against citizens with clean records
- End permits
- Overturn "Feinstein assault weapon" bans (as based on cosmetics)
- Carry anywhere
- Overturn ban on selling new automatics to citizens
- Right of citizens to file these lawsuits
- Force gov't to enforce gun laws (to reduce calls for new laws, to encourage reductions when law overloads systsm, and to highlight unconstitutional laws)
- Sue anti's for harassment
and many others.

There are _LOTS_ of illegal laws; get busy and overturn them! Force the issue enough that the Supremes have to make a clear ruling on the subject.

For a start, go to www.1934.org and support the "CLEO-signof elimination" suit.
 
Watcher: I am not sure if my comments will fit your thread as I am an Asian. But I will just go into the subject of taking away firearms of the civilian by their respective gov't.

Well, if my government will have a law of confiscating all firearms on the hands of the civilians and they will go house to house as it was happened during our Martial Law days during Pres. Marcos Gov't. The civilians cannot do anything, we cannot resist individually. But sooner or later there will be a group that will fight against an oppresive gov't.

The only thing I can do or others can do is to hide a firearms as we could for home defense only. Even now adays, there are many people who has guns or firearms without licenses but they use it for home defense or if ever they will be push back too much already.

Even me, if my gov't will declare that civilians are no longer entitled to licensed a gun. Then I will declare that I lost all my licensed existing firearms now but I can keep them well and only use it if necessary.

To my mind, my government will not do that, as Filipinos love guns also, be it licensed or not.

If I cannot afford to keep a licensed guns I will still keep some of it and the gov't may not come to know it. So long as someone has money he can own a gun. We all know that the gov't cannot protect us every time. But being a civilized society we must uphold the laws. But there were times we will Circumvent the laws also if we know it is not reasonable or humane in nature.

All countries have alot of histories about revolutions, armed or not. So, every man want to be freed. Another thing, always and always there are groups or organization that will work for the licensing of guns. The Presidents and the Generals down to the lowest soldiers will go back to civilian life too, and these people will always looking forward to own a firearms. Perhaps, USA has the most avid lovers of firearms and you have much knowledgeable people to work and keep on working for the rights of the populace. In Philippines, that will not happen, we have lessons from the Spaniards, to the Americans, to the Japanese and to the past Head of Governments. We also, note that UK and Japan who might have the strictest laws on guns, still there are crimes about firearms related.

So, I am one of those who will fight anyone who will get my rights in owning a gun.

Thanks
 
I see some wonderful posts here. Most of you have grasped the concept that the easiest way to insure freedom is to practice it every day. Many of you forget how this whole mess of gun laws started. I've recently began to read "Unintended Consequences" by John Ross. It gives the incite into what happened with "Miller vs the United States" This case was heard without Miller or a lawyer to defend him. The basis of this ruling has permeated the country. The Supreme Court chooses which cases it wishes to here, and I can bet you, it will not hear another case dealing with the constitutionality of the 1934 or 1968 gun control acts. The Jury is gone folks.

You had a soapbox here until it was pulled out from under your feet. The high ground? The high ground is the place where you control the outcome of a conflict. Not where you censor those who disagree. I'm curious as to the reason this Ruger was banned. Emailed him about it a while back, and he said to ask Rich, he didn't have a clue. He admitted to crossing a line with a post about the UN, but claims he was banned for quoting Founding Fathers, Past Presidents, and a 1982 senator. I have news for you folks, if you can be banned for a post refuting an arguement with historical fact, something is wrong. I've re-read some of Rugers past posts and wonder just where he erred. I have my own views on if he did or not. The minute we fail to expound upon a right(Freedom of Speech here) is the very moment we begin to loose that right. Rich I joined here with a sour taste in my mouth, I've read a few posts I found more offensive than Rugers yet those posters are still here. Is it because Ruger was Brave enough to stand-up in the face of Gale McMillan(a well known figure in the gun world) and prove him wrong. Your post below that was disjointed, not Rugers. McMillan said nothing of not showing our cards, he said Revolution was illegal. If your opinion pulls more weight than the quotes used by Ruger to back-up an arguement, who are you? God? I realize it's your board and your decision, but I think it's sad you slandered Ruger and gave him no way to recourse this. I told him I would start a petition to have him re-instated here, but he said:

"In my opinion, if Rich chooses to censor not me, but quotes of founding Fathers, Presidents, Senators, the Constitution, and the Bill of Rights. Then I wish to have no part of his board. Anyone who can walk all over the arguements of the Founding Fathers, ban free speech, and tromp on people who voice their views with backed-up unbiased views, is not someone I wish to have my name signed under."

The soapbox is gone folks.


We have to fill the ballot box with votes for pro-gun, pro-USA votes. We need to garner others support, once again Ruger was stressing this here more than any other I have seen. We can swing the tide of non-gunowners to our side, Ruger showed me how when I met him before I ever ventured to this board.

The Ammo Box, my favorite, I type with a sore wrist and shoulder today from a 400rd pistol practice, 100 high power rifle shots, and a little work with a shotgun. I follow the boyscout motto "Always be prepared."


I would like to say that I'm happy to see some of the folks here have stood-up for Ruger in his absence. He told me yesterday that he did notice and was suprised that people stood-up and voiced their opinions, said he was even suprised that Rich hadn't banned them for it.

Hang tough fellow Americans, we will win, at the ballot or at the Ammo box.

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When the last of the
brave and free refuse to
surrender, I intend to be
among them,

Anonymous patriot

[This message has been edited by 4freedomalone (edited October 05, 1999).]
 
4freedom-
Thanks for supporting Ruger. You seem to be a great fan...your attempts to promote him to Martyr status would, I hope, make him proud. You do, after all, mention him no less than 10 times in your post.

I, too, support Ruger, though I'm not nearly as capable of copying his writing style, words and grammatical pecadillos as you are. I support him so much, that I offered to set up a chat room or to even help him set up his own site for such "advanced tactical planning".

If some of you wish to bring this site down, that's easily done. I'm a bit tired of supporting it anyway. TFL was started as an experiment in polite internet exchange. When it ceases to be such, we'll close it and the hardliners can score a victory for voice volume and rudeness. No skin off my nose.

This thread is closed, as it's direction is obvious. That direction is adolescent puffery, passed off a warrior's patriotism. It's insulting and disingenuous.
Rich
 
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