Slide release discharge

S

SgtB

New member
So I have a Taurus PT92 AF-D.

Allow me to preface that while I own upwards of 100 weapons, served as an armorer in the US Army, and have handled weapons for decades. In this story maybe I did something wrong.....so I am open to critique, but what I really seek here is information or ideas I may be unaware of.

After a recent cleaning and safety functions test of this pistol, a round was chambered manually prior to inserting a full magazine, the intent being to put one in the pipe and then insert the full magazine. I have done this repeatedly with many weapons over decades of ownership. On 2/10/23 when this action was taken the weapon discharged. Luckily I do this action in a manner that found the barrel off cover of anything living or otherwise valuable.

I use Hornady Critical Duty ammo.

My first concern was possible mishandling on my part to have caused this discharge to happen. Did I have my finger on the trigger when I released the slide? If so would that cause this issue? That type of question.....

The discharge was captured on 2 security cameras. One of which was perpendicular to my grip and trigger finger and clearly showed I was handling the weapon properly. Even upon the weapon’s discharge I maintained grip on the weapon, no flanges were in the path of the rearward motion of the slide, etc.

In my subsequent range testing I could not emulate the issue while trying both normal slide operations and potential errors in handling I could have caused. Even with my finger on the trigger I could not make the pistol discharge when releasing the slide.

The weapon was being handed properly.

This video analysis of my handling coupled with my inability to emulate the issue both normally and with improper handling at a range leaves me now with absolute zero trust in this weapon.

I would appreciate feedback on this issue.
 
I was advised to expect the gun to go off, and maybe go full auto every time I dropped the slide by my former AMU armorer gunsmith.

Any gunk in the firing pin channel or a high primer or.. Lord knows what.

The good news is that you had good control of the muzzle and no one was injured. It's a good reminder to all of us to always expect the thing to go off.
 
First of all, generally frowned upon to load a semi auto pistol like that. Causes the extractor to ride over the rim and snap into place causing premature wear. Normally the round slides up and under the extractor. Insert mag, strip a round, remove mag, top off, mag insert mag.

When you dropped the slide, did the hammer drop too, or was it back as the slide closed. Im wonder if you had hamner follow, worn out sear or something. If not i suspect the firing pin got stuck forward. Was the manual safety engaged when chambering

Glad nothing bad happened and you did have a heart attack.
 
Does the Taurus PT92 AF-D have a firing pin block? Not to say mechanical devices can't or don't fail, I'm honestly curious.
 
Check positivity of sear engagement. Pull the trigger and observe closely the minute movement of the hammer before it drops. Should the hammer creep forward at all, the engagement is negative, which is not kosher.

With use the engagement can be worn negative.

-TL

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk
 
First of all, generally frowned upon to load a semi auto pistol like that.
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I don't know about the Taurus, but the Beretta 92 upon which the Taurus PT92 is based, is one of the few semi-auto pistols which is explicitly stated by the manufacturer to be suitable for direct chamber loading.

I did a quick check of a Taurus PT92 manual I found on line and didn't find anything on direct chamber loading. Didn't read it all the way through, just did some text searches and couldn't find anything about it.

You are correct that in general, this is not an acceptable practice as few guns are designed to tolerate it properly without eventual damage to the extractor.
When you dropped the slide, did the hammer drop too, or was it back as the slide closed.
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I think there would be no way to tell since the discharge would probably operate the slide and recock the hammer.
In my subsequent range testing I could not emulate the issue while trying both normal slide operations and potential errors in handling I could have caused. Even with my finger on the trigger I could not make the pistol discharge when releasing the slide.
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I see a few possibilities.

1. The firing pin jammed in the forward position due to damage to the firing pin or some kind of restriction in the firing pin channel that didn't allow it to retract properly after the last time it was fired.

2. The primer in the round was defective, and somehow fired when the slide closed. I think this is pretty unlikely, but it might be possible.

3. A piece of hard debris was stuck to the breechface and acted as a firing pin.

4. The firing pin is broken and the forward portion of it is unrestricted by the firing pin safety. The circumstances might have allowed the forward portion of the firing pin to protrude from the breech and fire the round when the slide dropped. These guns (or at least the Beretta 92 pistols) are known to sometimes operate even with a broken firing pin due to the design and robust hammer fall.
 
It may be frowned upon to drop the slide on a chambered round, but it doesn't cause undue wear on the extractor. That's why extractors are sprung-rather than rigid, and the extractor riding over a brass rim sure won't wear it.

As you found out, in rare circumstances doing so can cause a discharge. Simply feeding the first round from the magazine will keep that from happening.
 
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It may be frowned upon to drop the slide on a chambered round, but it doesn't cause undue wear on the extractor.
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It can chip/break the extractor in some designs because it isn't designed to take impact force on the front face.
 
Bill DeShivs said:
It may be frowned upon to drop the slide on a chambered round, but it doesn't cause undue wear on the extractor. That's why extractors are sprung-rather than rigid, and the extractor riding over a brass rime sure won't wear it.

As you found out, in rare circumstances doing so can cause a discharge. Simply feeding the first round from the magazine will keep that from happening.
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It will wreck an extractor on a 1911 where the extractor is the spring. Its not as bad on modern designs with separate springs, bit its not ideal at best as that is not the direction it was intended to receive load from, or with that ammount of vigor. Its more of a controlled round feed vs a push feed Design wise.
 
welcome to TFL

The weapon was being handed properly.
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Since you had an AD, I'd say that might be a matter of opinion over what is "properly"...

Correct me if I'm misunderstanding, it seems that you placed a round into the chamber, then released the slide, allowing the slide to slam forward against the chambered round. Is this what you did??

I have done this repeatedly with many weapons over decades of ownership.
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I'm sure you have. However other than it being your habit, its not really relevant.

What might be relevant is what you have done in the past with the specific weapon which discharged. Not with other weapons of that same make & model, or other weapons in general, but that specific one.

but what I really seek here is information or ideas I may be unaware of.
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Happy to help as much as I can. In order to provide you with as much information as I can, I need to ask a number of questions, some of which will sound stupidly obvious, but are needed in order to rule various factors in, or out of consideration.

The factors involved are you, the gun, and the ammo. How you manipulated the gun, the gun design, and the mechanical condition of the gun that fired are also factors.

First, you...finger on the trigger? NO, and you have video evidence you didn't have your finger on the trigger, and so could not have pulled it at the time of the AD. SO, safe to rule that one out, I think.

Next, how you manipulated the gun. You put a round into the chamber and then dropped the slide on it. Slide fell under full spring tension, you did not ride the slide to ease it shut, correct???

This, to me, is the major contributing factor (at this point). While there are lots and lots of guns where that is not a problem, there are guns where doing it that way IS a problem, and then there are guns where its not a problem unless there is some kind of mechanical failure that makes it a problem.

I have one semi auto pistol where the owner's manual specific forbids putting a round in the chamber and then dropping the bolt on it, because in that design, it is actually dangerous.

Generally what is advised is to load the chamber from the magazine, and then, remove and top off the magazine. This method avoids damage to extractors that aren't intended to snap over the rim, and avoids risk from guns with floating firing pins.

Chambering a round from the magazine means the slide is actually moving a bit slower, so the stop when it reaches the end of its travel isn't as abrupt. This might matter, depending on the gun design, AND the physical condition of the gun in question.

I am not personally familiar with the interior mechanics of your Taurus, you'll have to check it yourself, but if it uses an "inertia" style firing pin, its not impossible that it would work fine during the expected normal operation, but letting the slide slam shut on a chambered round MIGHT (if the stars line up), might be just enough of a difference to allow the firing pin to hit the primer. This might, or might not fire the round.

Which brings us to another major factor, the ammunition. And this is where replication of the accident becomes difficult. IF the ammunition was at fault, it is possible it was ONLY the one single round that fired, and not the type, brand or production lot of the ammo used.

What you had is commonly described as a "slamfire", and either the gun, OR the round of ammo that fired could be at fault. Most likely, if you cannot replicate the incident, is the specific round of ammo is at fault.

The primer is detonated by crushing the chemical pellet inside it, and while the firing pin is designed to do that, there are situations where it can happen without the firing pin being the cause.

A "High" primer MIGHT be detonated by the slide slamming into it during chambering. An overly sensitive primer might go off from the light strike of a floating firing pin bouncing off it during chambering. There are several guns that do that as part of normal operation.

Just as a guess, I would think you had a combination of an overly sensitive round, and letting the slide slam shut on it, was just enough to let the stars line up, and it fired. It is also not outside the realm of possibility that an overly sensitive round can fire when it is chambered in the normal way. I have seen this happen.

A "bad" round is something you cannot rule out, and you cannot replicate testing the gun with "good" ammo.

I'm glad no one was injured, clearly this demonstrates the importance of proper muzzle control when chambering a round, as well as at all other times.

I would recommend having your gun checked by a competent, qualified, gunsmith (not just a parts swapper) to ensure nothing is worn or defective.

And I would also recommend you change your practice for "topping up" so that you chamber a round from the magazine, then refill the magazine.

Its tough to trust a gun after something has gone wrong, I know, but if there is nothing mechanically wrong with the gun, and a couple hundred test rounds cannot replicate the fault, I think its reasonable to put it down to a single bad round of ammo.

Hope this helps, perhaps gives you some new information or something new to think about.
 
My first concern was possible mishandling on my part to have caused this discharge to happen. Did I have my finger on the trigger when I released the slide? If so would that cause this issue? That type of question.....
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Was your finger in the trigger guard?
If not I would remove the pistol from use until fully checked. If your finger did not pull the trigger there is a mechanical issue and needs to be corrected before any more live ammo is put in the gun.
If a trigger pull did not make the gun go off them there is an issue that needs to be corrected, no other explanation.
I would not trust it to even be at the range until it's fixed, either it's broke or there is something causing it to fire, 100% unsafe until diagnosed an fixed.
 
Shadow9mm said:
First of all, generally frowned upon to load a semi auto pistol like that. Causes the extractor to ride over the rim and snap into place causing premature wear. Normally the round slides up and under the extractor. Insert mag, strip a round, remove mag, top off, mag insert mag.

When you dropped the slide, did the hammer drop too, or was it back as the slide closed. Im wonder if you had hamner follow, worn out sear or something. If not i suspect the firing pin got stuck forward. Was the manual safety engaged when chambering

Glad nothing bad happened and you did have a heart attack.
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I had a feeling someone would remind me of this. I cannot say I disagree and I am certain this incident will change that habit....but what worries me is that if the misfire was a weapon malfunction isnt it safe to say that this method could also result in an AD?

The slide will not pull back when the safety is engaged.

Looking at a still pic....post AD....it looks like the hammer is back
 
44 AMP said:
Since you had an AD, I'd say that might be a matter of opinion over what is "properly"...

Correct me if I'm misunderstanding, it seems that you placed a round into the chamber, then released the slide, allowing the slide to slam forward against the chambered round. Is this what you did??



I'm sure you have. However other than it being your habit, its not really relevant.

What might be relevant is what you have done in the past with the specific weapon which discharged. Not with other weapons of that same make & model, or other weapons in general, but that specific one.



Happy to help as much as I can. In order to provide you with as much information as I can, I need to ask a number of questions, some of which will sound stupidly obvious, but are needed in order to rule various factors in, or out of consideration.

The factors involved are you, the gun, and the ammo. How you manipulated the gun, the gun design, and the mechanical condition of the gun that fired are also factors.

First, you...finger on the trigger? NO, and you have video evidence you didn't have your finger on the trigger, and so could not have pulled it at the time of the AD. SO, safe to rule that one out, I think.

Next, how you manipulated the gun. You put a round into the chamber and then dropped the slide on it. Slide fell under full spring tension, you did not ride the slide to ease it shut, correct???

This, to me, is the major contributing factor (at this point). While there are lots and lots of guns where that is not a problem, there are guns where doing it that way IS a problem, and then there are guns where its not a problem unless there is some kind of mechanical failure that makes it a problem.

I have one semi auto pistol where the owner's manual specific forbids putting a round in the chamber and then dropping the bolt on it, because in that design, it is actually dangerous.

Generally what is advised is to load the chamber from the magazine, and then, remove and top off the magazine. This method avoids damage to extractors that aren't intended to snap over the rim, and avoids risk from guns with floating firing pins.

Chambering a round from the magazine means the slide is actually moving a bit slower, so the stop when it reaches the end of its travel isn't as abrupt. This might matter, depending on the gun design, AND the physical condition of the gun in question.

I am not personally familiar with the interior mechanics of your Taurus, you'll have to check it yourself, but if it uses an "inertia" style firing pin, its not impossible that it would work fine during the expected normal operation, but letting the slide slam shut on a chambered round MIGHT (if the stars line up), might be just enough of a difference to allow the firing pin to hit the primer. This might, or might not fire the round.

Which brings us to another major factor, the ammunition. And this is where replication of the accident becomes difficult. IF the ammunition was at fault, it is possible it was ONLY the one single round that fired, and not the type, brand or production lot of the ammo used.

What you had is commonly described as a "slamfire", and either the gun, OR the round of ammo that fired could be at fault. Most likely, if you cannot replicate the incident, is the specific round of ammo is at fault.

The primer is detonated by crushing the chemical pellet inside it, and while the firing pin is designed to do that, there are situations where it can happen without the firing pin being the cause.

A "High" primer MIGHT be detonated by the slide slamming into it during chambering. An overly sensitive primer might go off from the light strike of a floating firing pin bouncing off it during chambering. There are several guns that do that as part of normal operation.

Just as a guess, I would think you had a combination of an overly sensitive round, and letting the slide slam shut on it, was just enough to let the stars line up, and it fired. It is also not outside the realm of possibility that an overly sensitive round can fire when it is chambered in the normal way. I have seen this happen.

A "bad" round is something you cannot rule out, and you cannot replicate testing the gun with "good" ammo.

I'm glad no one was injured, clearly this demonstrates the importance of proper muzzle control when chambering a round, as well as at all other times.

I would recommend having your gun checked by a competent, qualified, gunsmith (not just a parts swapper) to ensure nothing is worn or defective.

And I would also recommend you change your practice for "topping up" so that you chamber a round from the magazine, then refill the magazine.

Its tough to trust a gun after something has gone wrong, I know, but if there is nothing mechanically wrong with the gun, and a couple hundred test rounds cannot replicate the fault, I think its reasonable to put it down to a single bad round of ammo.

Hope this helps, perhaps gives you some new information or something new to think about.
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I will not be chambering a round in the manner in the future. Reading all of these comments and gleaning the better understanding of the effect on the weapon (barring the potential for the slamfire.....it is clear the method needs to end.

I did consider that it may have been that individual round of ammo.....but that does not negate my needing to change my method of chambering a round.

I have the spent case and the expanded bullet now forever mounted at my eye level in my gun cleaning area. Additionally..... I was lucky in that the only damage to the garage was a bit of particle board on a cabinet that was blown away.... which I am not going to repair. These will make great trophy reminders for me ......and force me into a level of remberance and awareness. I will wear them as a super lucky reminder of why the safety handling rules exist.

I have already created an RMS for the MFG and I will ship it in this week for review.
 
I cannot thank everyone enough for your opinions and very good ideas related to my method. I assure you that I will not be chambering rounds in that manner any longer.
 
Just imagining the sequence:

Manipulating the slide stop ....getting the thumb on the slide stop, can result in a somewhat open hand as the slide drops.

If the finger is inside the guard, its possible the "bump stock effect" came into play. Not truly a slam fire from firing pin inertia, but slide inertia moving the gun forward as the trigger finger is rigid. Trigger finger outside the guard would be the determining factor.

It might be mechanically just fine and technique needs adjusting.

Are these handloads? Primer sensitivity may be an issue. IIRC Reminton primers have a rep for being soft and sensitive. Good for those "tuned" DA revolvers with a light strike (better to have less "tune",more reliability)
Service rifles use mil spec primers for a reason.

I don't know the Beretta/Taurus Does it rely on a firing pin return spring?
Spring sets often require balance. An extra power recoil spring with a standard return spring? Maybe.

Just thinking out loud. Firing pin track might be gungy or have some form of friction or interference, Semi-fixed firing pin? I had an SKS that did that when it was new. A little "love" fixed it. Do those have a firing pin block that can drag a little?

Update : I went back and re-read the OP. Most of my questions are already answered!! Oh well!
 
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44 AMP said:
As I remember it, its not Remingtons, but Federal pistol primers that are considered the most sensitive.
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You are correct. I have a tricked out S&W Model 625 with a less than 5lb double action trigger pull. That trigger pull will only set off Federal primers reliably. To use ammo with any other primers I have to swap in a slightly heavier hammer spring.
 
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