SKS for deer?
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Doc Hudson
New member
Why not? It is nothing but a semi-automatic .30-30.
Stick to soft-point hunting ammo and enjoy the venison.
Doc Hudson
Stick to soft-point hunting ammo and enjoy the venison.
Doc Hudson
Well, this is kind of interesting. I have read all the previous replies, and only one thing comes to mind. My past year of deer hunting.
I decided right before hunting season that it was time to get myself a rifle of my own. I didn't have much money, and there was a reasonably priced SKS in the shop I was looking in. And man, it held ten shells, how can you beat that I thought.
The first morning, right away, I had one in my sights. Pulled the trigger, at about 50 yards, she fell nicely, and layed there for a few seconds. She then popped up and ran. It took me 4 more hits before she was down for good. I wasn't impressed.
Second morning, same thing. This time, 75 yards, decent buck. First shot, through the shoulder, he went down, but popped right back up. I hit him two more times, once in the shoulder again, and once in the rump. He got nearly a half a mile before he bedded down and we finally got him. SO, once again, I wasn't real impressed.
I went back after the huting season and traded it for a Remington 7600, I just want more takedown power. The SKS was fun to shoot, but just didn't have what it takes. Take this as you wish. But you can get some decent priced guns, with a lot more power. Good luck.
I decided right before hunting season that it was time to get myself a rifle of my own. I didn't have much money, and there was a reasonably priced SKS in the shop I was looking in. And man, it held ten shells, how can you beat that I thought.
The first morning, right away, I had one in my sights. Pulled the trigger, at about 50 yards, she fell nicely, and layed there for a few seconds. She then popped up and ran. It took me 4 more hits before she was down for good. I wasn't impressed.
Second morning, same thing. This time, 75 yards, decent buck. First shot, through the shoulder, he went down, but popped right back up. I hit him two more times, once in the shoulder again, and once in the rump. He got nearly a half a mile before he bedded down and we finally got him. SO, once again, I wasn't real impressed.
I went back after the huting season and traded it for a Remington 7600, I just want more takedown power. The SKS was fun to shoot, but just didn't have what it takes. Take this as you wish. But you can get some decent priced guns, with a lot more power. Good luck.
Art Eatman
Staff in Memoriam
I wish I had a nickel for each time I've read, "The .30-30 has killed more deer than any cartridge used in North America." Yeah--and it's wounded more deer than any other, as well. Wounded, got away, died, rotted.
Much of that has to do with the sights, of course. There is a reason for the popularity of scopes. Which takes us back to bullet placement and all that.
If you can take your thutty-thutty or AK-whatzit out and stand there and hit beer cans pretty often at 100 yards, I'll shut up and leave you alone. If you can't do that, I'm strongly in favor of using a different package for deer-hunting.
But I still believe a 140-grain bullet at some 2,200 ft/sec is just not a reliable clean-killing package on deer for the average shooter, except at rather close range. "Close range", however takes us right back to bullet placement and all that.
(Hmmm. Sounds familiar, somehow.)
Just points to ponder...
Art
Much of that has to do with the sights, of course. There is a reason for the popularity of scopes. Which takes us back to bullet placement and all that.
If you can take your thutty-thutty or AK-whatzit out and stand there and hit beer cans pretty often at 100 yards, I'll shut up and leave you alone. If you can't do that, I'm strongly in favor of using a different package for deer-hunting.
But I still believe a 140-grain bullet at some 2,200 ft/sec is just not a reliable clean-killing package on deer for the average shooter, except at rather close range. "Close range", however takes us right back to bullet placement and all that.
(Hmmm. Sounds familiar, somehow.)Just points to ponder...
Art
Doc Hudson
New member
re:and it's wounded more deer than any other, as well
Art,
I can not argue the words or the sentiment. But consider this.
Winchester has produced over 5 Million M-1894's and quite a few hundred thousand M-64 in .30-30 WCF.
Marlin has produced more millions of M-36's, M-336's and M-30's in .30-30 WCF.
Savage and Stevens each produced a million or more bolt action .30-30's. Remington and Winchester also turned out a slew of .30-30 bolt guns.
My point is that there are more hunting rifles chambered for the .30-30 WCF than any other caliber. Until the late 60' or early 70's I don't think I ever saw a hunting rifle other than some sort of .30-30 or a bolt action .30-'06. For nearly three-quarters of a century, the terms Deer Rifle and .30-30 have been pretty much synonymous. It was the tool of the Pro and the Tyro.
So, since the .30-30 has shot more deer and other game than any other centerfire cartridge, it stands to reason that not only has it killed more game than any other cartridge, it has also wounded and lost more game than any other cartridge.
I'd bet that the most lost wounded ledger could be explained by applying one or more of four reasons.
(1) Poor Bullet placement.
(2) Shot made beyond effective range.
(3) Using wrong bullet for the job or improper bullet
design.
(4) Inexperienced hunter who failed to properly follow up a
wounded animal.
I'd be willing to bet that the same reasons apply to the SKS's failures in deer hunting. Replacing a .30-30 or SKS with a more powerful rifle will not make up for poor bullet placement nor for lack of experience. Only practice can make up for those short comings.
Regards,
Doc Hudson
Art,
I can not argue the words or the sentiment. But consider this.
Winchester has produced over 5 Million M-1894's and quite a few hundred thousand M-64 in .30-30 WCF.
Marlin has produced more millions of M-36's, M-336's and M-30's in .30-30 WCF.
Savage and Stevens each produced a million or more bolt action .30-30's. Remington and Winchester also turned out a slew of .30-30 bolt guns.
My point is that there are more hunting rifles chambered for the .30-30 WCF than any other caliber. Until the late 60' or early 70's I don't think I ever saw a hunting rifle other than some sort of .30-30 or a bolt action .30-'06. For nearly three-quarters of a century, the terms Deer Rifle and .30-30 have been pretty much synonymous. It was the tool of the Pro and the Tyro.
So, since the .30-30 has shot more deer and other game than any other centerfire cartridge, it stands to reason that not only has it killed more game than any other cartridge, it has also wounded and lost more game than any other cartridge.
I'd bet that the most lost wounded ledger could be explained by applying one or more of four reasons.
(1) Poor Bullet placement.
(2) Shot made beyond effective range.
(3) Using wrong bullet for the job or improper bullet
design.
(4) Inexperienced hunter who failed to properly follow up a
wounded animal.
I'd be willing to bet that the same reasons apply to the SKS's failures in deer hunting. Replacing a .30-30 or SKS with a more powerful rifle will not make up for poor bullet placement nor for lack of experience. Only practice can make up for those short comings.
Regards,
Doc Hudson
Jamie Young
New member
Those 123gr Hollow Points do expand consistantly and I'm sure you could blast a deer with one. I often wondered about going hunting with my SKS here In PA but its illegal. I'm sure you could drop a deer with an SKS and your not under powered. People like to compare the 7.62x39 to the 30/30 and there absolutely correct. I've shot enough of them at ranges out to 300yds and they both perform similarly. Go ahead and get it for hunting!!
Art Eatman
Staff in Memoriam
Doc, I sure agree with your list!
SodaPop, consider this: Many of the folks who ask about using the SKS-style of rifle sound like, seem to be, novices at either shooting or hunting. I generally try to steer that type of person toward some package with which shot placement is easier, for one thing. A scoped bolt-action seems to me to be better...
A personal opinion is that a bad hit in the body of a deer from something like a .30-'06 will more likely allow a second, killing shot than will a bad body hit from a lesser cartridge. I think he'll be down longer before running, or won't run as far due to more internal damage. A novice, IMO, is more likely to have a proper-placement problem than a more experienced hunter/shooter. (And then again, maybe a novice will be more careful. What do I know?)
For comparison, I know a guy who hunts in swamp country. He kills his deer with a .22 Magnum. I don't say anything because I've watched him kill running squirrels high up in trees with his .22 rimfire. This guy is not just good; he comes under the heading of "Something else!". Most of his deer are shot between the eyes, at 15 to 20 yards. One shot, one deer. (Stand hunting, longer ranges, he uses an '06.)
Anyway, you'll notice I harp a lot about one's developing a high skill level at hitting small targets, offhand; and about proper shot placement...
, Art
SodaPop, consider this: Many of the folks who ask about using the SKS-style of rifle sound like, seem to be, novices at either shooting or hunting. I generally try to steer that type of person toward some package with which shot placement is easier, for one thing. A scoped bolt-action seems to me to be better...
A personal opinion is that a bad hit in the body of a deer from something like a .30-'06 will more likely allow a second, killing shot than will a bad body hit from a lesser cartridge. I think he'll be down longer before running, or won't run as far due to more internal damage. A novice, IMO, is more likely to have a proper-placement problem than a more experienced hunter/shooter. (And then again, maybe a novice will be more careful. What do I know?)
For comparison, I know a guy who hunts in swamp country. He kills his deer with a .22 Magnum. I don't say anything because I've watched him kill running squirrels high up in trees with his .22 rimfire. This guy is not just good; he comes under the heading of "Something else!". Most of his deer are shot between the eyes, at 15 to 20 yards. One shot, one deer. (Stand hunting, longer ranges, he uses an '06.)
Anyway, you'll notice I harp a lot about one's developing a high skill level at hitting small targets, offhand; and about proper shot placement...
, ArtRiverRider
New member
I disagree with EVERYBODY.
A 7.62x39 round is NOT equivalent to a .30-30 to begin with. But the truth is, it does not matter.
With all due respect to those whose opinions I am contradicting, the simple truth is that the important thing is the precise delivery of THE RIGHT BULLET at the RIGHT VELOCITY in the RIGHT PLACE. Some bullets are designed for very high velocity, some are best used at rather low velocities.
I don't think much of the SKS round as a deer cartridge, but that's subjectivity speaking. With the right bullet placed in the right spot, an SKS should pole-ax any deer hit within a reasonable range.
-RR-
A 7.62x39 round is NOT equivalent to a .30-30 to begin with. But the truth is, it does not matter.
With all due respect to those whose opinions I am contradicting, the simple truth is that the important thing is the precise delivery of THE RIGHT BULLET at the RIGHT VELOCITY in the RIGHT PLACE. Some bullets are designed for very high velocity, some are best used at rather low velocities.
I don't think much of the SKS round as a deer cartridge, but that's subjectivity speaking. With the right bullet placed in the right spot, an SKS should pole-ax any deer hit within a reasonable range.
-RR-
Shooter 973
New member
SKS for deer
It's more important where you hit them than what you hit them with,
The VC used a lot of sks 's on our troops and they worked to well in my humble case , you don't want to be shot at them ever again.
It's more important where you hit them than what you hit them with,
The VC used a lot of sks 's on our troops and they worked to well in my humble case , you don't want to be shot at them ever again.
First off 7.62x39 is not equal to the 30-30. The 7.62 round uses a 125 grain bullet and the 30-30 uses a 170 grain bullet and the velocity is about 2100fps for the 2 rounds listed, if you don't believe me check out the Hodgdon's reloading manual #26 page 383. Now with that being said I would not be afraid to use a properly sighted in SKS on a deer at 100 yards or less with the correctly placed shot. One more thing to consider is to check the local laws conserning magazine capacity because you might have to buy a 5 round mag for hunting instead of the standard 10 rounder that comes with an SKS. Good luck.
Jamie Young
New member
Scottsw1-Just to clear things up I know there not EXACTLY the same but when you take the usual 20inch lever action and the SKS to the range there both going to fly pretty much the same. I've never used a Chrono for the Russian round but I've read they mostly fly in the 2300fps range. And Most 30/30's are slightly slower. Not much of a difference to argue about. Most 30/30's I've shot were 150gr or 170gr. True 170gr and 123gr aren't the same. I would never trust myself with a 22cal except maybe a .243 for hunting. I didn't like watching a grouse die for 5 min after I shout it with size 8 shot a few years ago much less watch a deer in pain from a 22cal.
ok, just one question ....
What kind of SKS would be hunting-accurate? I've heard the Romanian AK's are pretty trashy, so I wouldn't buy one of their SKS's either. But if not, which type?
Also, can you scope an SKS and NOT have "wobbly-mount" syndrome?
Just wondering since I have been wanting an SKS for a long time but have been leery so far.
What kind of SKS would be hunting-accurate? I've heard the Romanian AK's are pretty trashy, so I wouldn't buy one of their SKS's either. But if not, which type?
Also, can you scope an SKS and NOT have "wobbly-mount" syndrome?
Just wondering since I have been wanting an SKS for a long time but have been leery so far.
Doc Hudson
New member
If you find a solid reliable scope mount for the SKS, please inform me. I am of the opinion that there ain't no such animule.
My SKS is a ChiCom version. Going by hearsay, the Russian made are best followed by the East German, Romanian, and ChiCom last.
Doc Hudson
My SKS is a ChiCom version. Going by hearsay, the Russian made are best followed by the East German, Romanian, and ChiCom last.
Doc Hudson
Jamie Young
New member
I have a Russian SKS and use to own another one. I wouldn't waste time on scopes for them. I've gone threw 3 scopes of various designs and they didn't work very long. I don't think too many people do any better than 3inches at 100yds with an SKS and Mine shoots closer to 5inches. The Russian are the best by far!
Try this to scope the SKS rifle ...
Drill and tap a std Weaver-type mount to the receiver cover. I'd strongly advise you use Millett windage adjustable mounts in case you don't line the mount up parallel to the bore. Using the windage-adj mounts, I was able to dial-in the Leapers mini 3-9x scope within 1" or so of POI WITHOUT touching the scope's adjustments.
Burris SIGNATURE mounts even allow for vertical adjustments, but they're pricy, and I don't think needed for this application -- my vertical was only off 2-3" at 100 yards.
To solve the issues raised about putting a scope onto the receiver cover, try this:
I used Pro-Bed which is an epoxy made by a gunsmith for bedding purposes. This receiver cover pictured had ~0.005" slop at the rear before I bedded it -- now it is rock solid.
One thing -- DO NOT use a Buffer Tech-type recoil buffer or any alleged recoil buffer in a receiver cover. This area is NOT where an SKS strikes the receiver during cycling anyway, and the r-cover was not designed to absorb or stop any rearward bolt movement. IF interested, check out the "H"-type recoil buffer sold by http://www.sksparts.com -- scroll down to you see the ad ... you'll see what I mean
.
FWIW -- I also completely glass bedded my SKS action as one would the M1A National Match-type rifle. Using PMC soft-point 125gr ammo [made for deer hunting] this Chicom SKS prints 5 shot groups at consistent 1.5" for aggregates.
I don't hesitate using it at ranges up to 150 yards. FWIW, a buddy in PA removed the gas piston [not the op rod or any springs!!!!] and welded a plug into his gas port, effectively rendering his SKS into a straight-pull, non-repeating bolt action rifle [uses a 5 round magazine too]. This should meet any State's non-semi-auto requirement.
Tight groups
!!
[Edited by Lefty on 03-06-2001 at 08:58 AM]
Drill and tap a std Weaver-type mount to the receiver cover. I'd strongly advise you use Millett windage adjustable mounts in case you don't line the mount up parallel to the bore. Using the windage-adj mounts, I was able to dial-in the Leapers mini 3-9x scope within 1" or so of POI WITHOUT touching the scope's adjustments.
Burris SIGNATURE mounts even allow for vertical adjustments, but they're pricy, and I don't think needed for this application -- my vertical was only off 2-3" at 100 yards.
To solve the issues raised about putting a scope onto the receiver cover, try this:
I used Pro-Bed which is an epoxy made by a gunsmith for bedding purposes. This receiver cover pictured had ~0.005" slop at the rear before I bedded it -- now it is rock solid.
One thing -- DO NOT use a Buffer Tech-type recoil buffer or any alleged recoil buffer in a receiver cover. This area is NOT where an SKS strikes the receiver during cycling anyway, and the r-cover was not designed to absorb or stop any rearward bolt movement. IF interested, check out the "H"-type recoil buffer sold by http://www.sksparts.com -- scroll down to you see the ad ... you'll see what I mean
.FWIW -- I also completely glass bedded my SKS action as one would the M1A National Match-type rifle. Using PMC soft-point 125gr ammo [made for deer hunting] this Chicom SKS prints 5 shot groups at consistent 1.5" for aggregates.
I don't hesitate using it at ranges up to 150 yards. FWIW, a buddy in PA removed the gas piston [not the op rod or any springs!!!!] and welded a plug into his gas port, effectively rendering his SKS into a straight-pull, non-repeating bolt action rifle [uses a 5 round magazine too]. This should meet any State's non-semi-auto requirement.
Tight groups
!! [Edited by Lefty on 03-06-2001 at 08:58 AM]
Another way to look at it.
Assuming that you have an accurate-enough rifle, a .30-30 or 7.62x39 (120 - 140gr) will have about the same velocity at 100 yards that a .308/.270/.30-06-class would have, with the same bullet mass, at 300 - 500 yards, depending on loads, BC, etc.
Midwest deer hunting in my experience means shots less than 100 yards. The longest shot I ever took was probably about 60. The shortest was last season - about 12 feet (!!). The longest shot I've seen personally was probably about 150. This advice is obviously not appropriate for hunting mule deer out west.
-z
Assuming that you have an accurate-enough rifle, a .30-30 or 7.62x39 (120 - 140gr) will have about the same velocity at 100 yards that a .308/.270/.30-06-class would have, with the same bullet mass, at 300 - 500 yards, depending on loads, BC, etc.
Midwest deer hunting in my experience means shots less than 100 yards. The longest shot I ever took was probably about 60. The shortest was last season - about 12 feet (!!). The longest shot I've seen personally was probably about 150. This advice is obviously not appropriate for hunting mule deer out west.
-z
K
KilgorII
Guest
Sigh...
scottsw1,
The 7.62x39and 30-30 are very close.
I load Speer's 150 grain .311" soft point over 28 grain of IMR 4895. This gives me an average of 2160 fps from a 20" sks barrel.
According to Speer #13 the 125 grain bullet has been loaded to 2544 fps in 7.62x39. The standard for 7.62x39 is a 125 grain bullet at 2400 fps from a 20" barrel, not 2,100 fps as you suggest.
Also according to Speer #13, the 30-30 150 grain bullet high is near 2,200 fps.
So.
30-30 = 150 gr @ 2,200 fps
7.62x39 = 150 gr @ 2,160 fps
Pretty damn close if you ask me.
Also, the 7.62x39 uses spitzer style bullets with a much better ballistic coefficient than the flat point that one must use in a lever action 30-30 due to the tubular magazine. This means it holds speed and thus energy much better. The 7.62x39 loses about 150 ft/lbs of energy less than a 150 grain 30-30 at 100 yards. So the 7.62x39 is more powerful than the 30-30 at 100 yards.
____________________________________________________
The above mount is made by Millet and it mounts to the rear sight base. I bought one and have put it on SKS with a Nikon 2X pistol scope.
It is extremely solid and I have experienced no loss of zero. You can mount a reddot on it or a long eye relief scope like I did.
I bought it for $34.95 from http://www.gunaccessories.com/Millet/MilitaryRifle/index.asp
scottsw1,
The 7.62x39and 30-30 are very close.
I load Speer's 150 grain .311" soft point over 28 grain of IMR 4895. This gives me an average of 2160 fps from a 20" sks barrel.
According to Speer #13 the 125 grain bullet has been loaded to 2544 fps in 7.62x39. The standard for 7.62x39 is a 125 grain bullet at 2400 fps from a 20" barrel, not 2,100 fps as you suggest.
Also according to Speer #13, the 30-30 150 grain bullet high is near 2,200 fps.
So.
30-30 = 150 gr @ 2,200 fps
7.62x39 = 150 gr @ 2,160 fps
Pretty damn close if you ask me.
Also, the 7.62x39 uses spitzer style bullets with a much better ballistic coefficient than the flat point that one must use in a lever action 30-30 due to the tubular magazine. This means it holds speed and thus energy much better. The 7.62x39 loses about 150 ft/lbs of energy less than a 150 grain 30-30 at 100 yards. So the 7.62x39 is more powerful than the 30-30 at 100 yards.
____________________________________________________
The above mount is made by Millet and it mounts to the rear sight base. I bought one and have put it on SKS with a Nikon 2X pistol scope.
It is extremely solid and I have experienced no loss of zero. You can mount a reddot on it or a long eye relief scope like I did.
I bought it for $34.95 from http://www.gunaccessories.com/Millet/MilitaryRifle/index.asp