Six-Foot

Yes, the 45-70 can penetrate very deep, as can many other fairly low-velocity loads. The 30-30 170 gr bullets, 7X57 175 gr bullets, and the 35 Remington with 220 gr bullets have been considered good killers and good penetrators for over a century. They do not shoot flat, though, and that is where the magnums really shine and make range estimation far less critical. And a lot of people do not like the recoil generated by shooting heavy bullets, so high-velocity is more popular.

Medium-velocity rounds like the 404 Jeffreys, 400 Nitro Express, and many of the 40-caliber to 45-caliber black powder rounds were considered superior to higher velocity cartridges when those higher velocity smokeless rounds first showed up because of how well they penetrate. The secret to penetration is in displacing water; the harder/faster you push, the more it resists, and the bigger the diameter the less penetration for the same weight bullet. If you push slowly, the bullets slide right through. I read may years ago that a 7X57 will out-penetrate a 7mm Rem Mag, and had people call me a liar and spout off about how magnum cartridges are superior blah blah blah ad infinitum. I read about Robert Ruark shooting a rhino with a 318 Westley-Richards (the 318 Westley Richards launches a 250 gr bullet at 2,400 fps), and the bullet penetrated from its head to the base of its tail, over 8 feet! And we have all read about buffalo hunters waiting for animals to line up and shooting 2 bulls with a single shot, and how WDM Bell shot elephants with a 275 Rigby (7X57). Heavy bullets pushed slow penetrate well.

I have seen the effects of high-velocity bullets on game many times, and my old 11X60Rmm (11mm Mauser) killed very well with very little meat damage, just poked a 44-cal hole from one side to the other. My 8mm Rem Mag, on the other hand, killed like lightning, but the animal was bloodshot from the neck to the hips. I now shoot very modest-velocity cartridges, and have not been disappointed with penetration since I started buying good bullets.
 
Very good information, and I'm sure the article explains it far better than I could.

But, one should match the cartridge and load to the game hunted. The bullet used, and the velocity should correspond to the desired results.

IOW, a 500 grain .458 bullet is a great penetrator, but it won't give any advantage on a deer standing 300 yards away. You don't need that penetration on a deer, and higher velocity will allow for easier and more accurate bullet placement.

But on a larger critter at closer range, the slower, heavier bullet will have a definite advantage.

I've seen the results of a lot of fast bullets, slow bullets, and even medium velocity bullets. They all kill effectively when matched to the game and the conditions encountered on a hunt.

A 7x57 with heavy bullets is a great penetrator, but I'd choose a 7mm mag with medium wieght bullets pushed at top velocities for long range deer hunting. I'm less concerned with penetration, and more concerned about trajectory.

What is apparent from testing is that penetration stops increasing at impact speeds above about 1250-1300 fps.
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Which is something that many folks don't understand when they discuss the effectiveness of big-bore handguns. A handgun is generally a fairly short range tool (not talking about hand-rifles here), so trajectory is less important. A big bore handgun with heavy, well made hard cast bullets will out-penetrate many "more powerful" rifle cartridges.

In the end, it's more reason to consider and decide exactly what one expects of any particular firearm before choosing the cartridge it's chambered for.

Daryl
 
another advantage to the .45/70(and other similar cartridges) goes with the saying "you can eat right up to the hole". meaning that the big slow boolits dont produce as much hydrostatic shock as fast light bullets, and that means less meat damage.
 
There is a link that shows up fairly often showing the results of different cartridges effectiveness in stopping a grizzly attack. The study was done by Alaska fish and game several years ago. They chose the 30-06 as the best compromise.

Some of the large bore magnums were considered better stoppers, but with the right bullets at close range the old '06 was good enough, and recoil was much more manageable. The 30-06 out penetrated the 300 magnums for the same reasons Scorch described.
 
I can't help it, I like "thumpers". 45-70 is one of the better ones, .375 Win and .35 Rem are a couple of my other favorites. Nothing against the .30-06, I have three of them. I don't do long shots on game and recoil isn't an issue for an old fat guy like me. Trailing wounded critters into canyons, cover and creeks is something I want to avoid, especially if he's a big boar hog.
 
ooh! i am afraid of this thread!!! seen good friends become enemies when comparing 45 gov and the likes to "more commonly used dg calibres"

so far this thread is very tame. but i will be watching.

personal a big fan of slow shooters. the 300H&H is very popular over here in Africa. one of the reasons being its ability to be downloaded for low velocity in combination with 200 and 220 grn or even 250grn if you can get any.

it is simply fantastic if you shoot large animals like kudu and eland and you can see the knock down power first hand of that heavy slow movers. the less meat damage is essential and the bonus is to find the bullet under the skin opposite to the entry hole. i use high speed almost soly for pest control. for that the 150grn out of any 300mag is a good African varminter
 
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