Single Action vs. Double Action

D

DesertRat

New member
My question is how many of you have abandoned Double Action handguns for Single Actions for self defense?

I've found that my preferences have "evolved" over the years. My first handgun was a 4" Smith & Wesson 19 which I carried from '86 to '88. From '88 to 98 it was my Sig P226 or P220. From '98 to current its been my Les Baer SRP.

I've found that with each progression (reduction of trigger pull/travel) my speed and accuracy have increased dramatically particularly with my 1911.

I believe Single Actions are the way to go for purely self defense handguns. What's your opinion?
 
DR:

IMHO anyone of the three types that is right for you. In other words, that you can shoot accurately, quickly and with absolute confidence and safety.

I don't think one can say one type is absolutely superior to the others...there have been too many great modern gunfighters who excelled with revolvers. Men like Bill Jordan, Jim Cirillo and Charles Askins, for example.

Mike
 
It's not the gun inasmuch as it is the user who trains with it. If the user is extremely proficient with a SA, it would be a mistake to compel him/her to go with a DA/SA pistol which he/she is merely competent with. It reduces the shooter's confidence and may delay response time.

As for myself, SA/DA pistols are fine as well as DA revolvers.

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Vigilantibus et non dormientibus jura subveniunt
 
I have switched to semi-automatics for day to day carry as have several of the guys I used to compete with. The reason for the switch is due to the profile and concealability of the semi-auto while retaining decent capacity. To be specific, I switched from a Model 19 Smith to a G27 Glock.
 
4v50,

The way I see it is that this is strictly an issue of trigger ergonomics/dynamics. I don't believe it realistic to think that a 12+ lb. trigger pull is realistic for a competent finger to effectively control when the chips are down.

Yes, I do realize that super light triggers can be counterproductive to marksmanship. Further, I understand that many top bowling pin shooters use rather heavy pulls. How??? Perhaps my trigger finger control is not as good as it can be.

Shooting thousands of rounds through my double action autos for 10 years combined with competent firearms instruction leads me to believe I've reached the ability of the Sigs(GIVEN)their heavy trigger pulls. This is not to say I can outperform the guns. Such a statement would be ludicrous. I just believe such triggers are counter productive. What do you believe to be good groups for 5 rounds at 10 yards?

Triggers set at 4.5 to 6.5 lbs. appear to be optimal. The flip side though is the potential for AD/ND in a panic situation. I've only drawn my weapon once--surprised by a flashlight wielding auto thief at 4:30am. I found that appropriatly, I didn't place my finger on the trigger.

Geez, I've opened another can of worms here. This one tough subject! I'd like to hear more opinions on the pros/cons and your ultimate preference.

Thanks,

DR
 
You made two potentially serious mistakes.
1. You drew your weapon against a car thief. You may NEVER use deadly force against a property crime. The self-defense plea is not allowed unless your life or the life of another is in immediate jeopardy. Where I live, if you "capture" an unarmed car thief at gun point, you will be charged with a felony. (Unless you are a sworn Law Enforcement Officer.)
2. If the situation is serious enough to draw your weapon (ability, opportunity and jeopardy being present) your finger should have gone to the trigger immediately you identified the person as an immediate threat to your life or the life of another and your sights were on your assailant. If you want the real truth about your state's laws, talk to your lawyer, not to a bunch of Gamesmen or "Instructors" who may be from out of state.You need to do some serious thinking about your overall strategy and reactive tactics. Make sure it's time to act, THEN ACT, do not act prematurely then have to abort the action. Your opponent will always assume that you are going to finish the action.
I'm not trying to be a know it all or act superior. I'm speaking from the standpoint of having trained Police, Security Officers and Private Detectives since 1954.
As for which type of weapon to become proficient with: Master them all; you never know what weapon will come to hand in a lethal confrontation. You may be shooting a target pistol or a Luger from your collection when somebody decides to shoot you for your guns. That happened before the Florida FBI massacre a few years ago. Master them all.

[This message has been edited by John Lawson (edited December 04, 1999).]
 
Dear John,

Where I live (Arizona) you MAY threaten to use deadly force to protect your property. However, I know this is a hollow threat. Additionally, you have no duty to retreat from your property if you are confronted by an intruder.

Second, I thought he had a baton--or something, not a 5 cell mag light, either of which he could have used to bludgeon me to death. I will not simply stand there to get clobbered!!

I came around a corner to within 7-10 feet of him when he turned suddenly with a large, black long object in his hand. You had to be there!! I challenged him stating "don't move or I'll shoot." in addition to making some ground between him and myself--as trained.

Further, both of my firearms instructors are former Gunsite Orange Instructors and both agreed with my actions that morning. Additionally I regularly practice with Tempe, Phoenix, Glendale and Maricopa County Sheriff's officers (all friends) who also agreed with my reaction.

The particular apartment complex I was living in at the time was having regular problems with all types of crimes from assualts to torched cars; therefore, I fail to see how I overreacted.

Would you automatically shoot someone before issuing a verbal challenge? That sounds like a lawsuit waiting to happen--assuming immediate death was not imminent.

Further, immediate retreat (i.e. running) was not possible as I had to turn around take one to two steps left, then right, then left again. Explain to me how to do that when you're getting a flashlight buried in your skull or worse yet stabbed or shot.

I'm not trying to sound arrogant, but I fail to see how simply standing there after walking around a blind corner and surprising a potentially violent criminal is recommended.
 
DR sounds correct to me on this one.
While, I'm no lawyer, he would
probably be OK in TX for his action,
esp. at night.

The "DON'T MOVE" shout is the one
I got out of quite a few classes.
 
I'm no Bill Jordan by even the wildest stretch of the imagination but I do quite well with DA/DA autos. I feel umfortable with a cocked and locked SA auto and have recently begun to question the wisdom of the Glock's light trigger, for me. Since this is entirely subjective go with what you feel comfortable with but do try to master every weapon that you can. When terrs took over the OPEC meeting in Brussels(?) one minister managed to wrestle a submachine gun from a terr only to discover he didn't know how to remove the safety. You just never know.

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So many pistols, so little money.
 
at a range of 5 feet, is the trigger pull going to be a major factor in your survivability? it's great to practice at 25 yards, but for most of us any self-defense activities are going to occur at a range of 10 feet or less maybe 99% of the time. the remaining 1% is traded off against the possibility of a ND or failure to off the safety.

for me, priorities are;
1) avoid risky areas
2) maintain scan
3) have some cover
4) have a gun, reload, and light
5) be able to draw, fire, and hit expeditiously at "bad breath" distances
6) shoot an effective cartridge and load

I'm willing to trade off long-range accuracy for a mistake-resistant trigger, because I believe long-range engagements are unlikely for me. YMMV.
 
Well said, Ivanhoe.

Maybe I'm naive, but I don't remember ever meeting someone new, good or bad, at a distance of more than 10 or 15 feet. Of course, I might SEE them at a greater distance, but I don't engage in conversation until they are closer. I'm sure the same holds true for BGs in that they are not going to telegraph their intentions any earlier than they have to by yelling at you from 7 yards or more to give them your wallet, keys, wife, etc. At that distance you might have time to get away, arm yourself, or scream for help. No, from all of my reading (thank goodness I've never had to experience an attack) BGs like to get up close and personal when they strike and give as little warning as possible, at least the ones who are good at it.

So what's my point? Learning to shoot well at 7+ yards is fun and important to know, in certain situations. For the average Joe, however, with a CCW, shooting a BG at 7+ yards might very well open you up to a lawsuit; the likelihood of a lawsuit would probably increase in direct proportion to the increase in distance. From what I can tell (there are many gray areas) about my CCW, it is only to be used if I reasonably believe that bodily harm is imminent and I have neither the means nor the ability to escape.

Getting back to the original point of this thread (something I have a tendency to forget), I would say no, a single action is not right for self defense, FOR ME. Of course, I'm talking about revolvers; I know nothing about SA autos. The one auto I have, and sometimes carry, the Makarov, is carried ready to use in the DA mode, with the safety off. Since the Makarov is kind of heavy, as soon as my holster arrives, I'll be carrying a S&W 642, a DAO revolver that I feel comfortable and competent with.
DAL

P.S. Come to think of it, I DO have another auto, a Ruger 22/45, but I wouldn't carry it for self protection unless I had to.
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Reading "Capitalism: The Unknown Ideal," by Ayn Rand, should be required of every politician and in every high school.

[This message has been edited by DAL (edited December 07, 1999).]
 
I have returned to SA autos for protection...
DAs are fine. I like many DA autos.
But I like SAs better.

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"A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity." - Sigmund Freud
Hey - have you seen the new Ultimate Super Tactical Match Gun?
 
I just took a tactical handgun class this past weekend. Going in, I had a pretty low opinion of the 1911 design. I've got to admit that I'm rethinking my opinions. The single action pistol is far from outdated...
 
Desert Rat: Statutory laws change from day to day. What does Case (Judicial) law say about using deadly force against a property crime? In my state when confronted by an intruder, you may only use equal force to counter the intrusion. If he has a club, you can use a club, etc. A sworn police officer may use "reasonable" force. Either way, if you kill an intruder on your property (remember, he has only committed a misdemeanor, to wit: trespass) you place your life in the hands of 12 people.
Then, when that's all over, you get to go through it all over again in a civil suit, and you may have to sell the ranch to pay off the judgments.
You said "I thought he had..." If you use that phrase in court, you are dead in the water. Always say "I saw that he had..." Then, if he has a threatening stance with a club or a flashlight, shoot.
That's the way it is in my state. If you don't know what the current case law dictates in your state, ask your attorney...don't rely on the word of LEO's who have more latitude to act. (You are bound by the doctrine of Equal Force, not the LEO doctrine of Reasonable Force) And ALWAYS carry the phone number of your attorney in your wallet.
If you ever get into a shooting, you will be tempted to justify your action to anybody who will listen. Don't say a word to witnesses, and immediately describe yourself to the investigating officer as "the victim", only give the officer a cursory explanation such as "He said he was going to kill me with that flashlight." Then inform him that you fully intend to cooperate AFTER you consult with your attorney. And, if your attorney tells you not to give a preliminary statement as above before consulting with him, do what he says. State laws differ, and he will know what is best for you.
You have to be careful what you say on a public forum, since someone in another state may assume that it will work for him rather than to consult with his attorney, which is always an eye opener and sometimes a shocker.
I have known too many LEO's and civilians who have had to pay an enormous price for listening to "good" advice or believing in "statutory" law. I suggest that every one of you who read this ask your attorney how much he will charge to defend you in court, should you become involved in a lethal or non-lethal encounter with a firearm. You might find this a sobering reality. It will definitely tempt you to destroy your "Kill 'em all, let God sort 'em out" sweat shirt.
 
John,

I understand with and agree with what you are saying. However, here in Arizona, we are not bound by the same liberal restrictions as say, Maryland, D.C., etc. You MAY threaten to use deadly force, I DIDN'T say use deadly force.

I personally know three individuals who have detained "unarmed" criminals with their firearms. None have ever been seriously or even slightly scrutinized by the Police.

Much of what you have said I've read or been lectured to for years and countless times by my Instructors, Ayoob, Steiner, Spalding, Marshall, etc....This is not to say I'm downplaying the seriousness, nor am I giving nor puporting to give legal advice to anyone here.

Have I consulted with an attorney? You betcha, through a good friend's long time business partner who's praticed criminal law here for years.

Further, under NO circumstances would I discuss the incident with anyone, except my counsel. I know my Miranda warning from Miranda v. Arizona.

As for my statement "...it looked like a..." Again, I'm not in court here. Of course I would know better than to say that in court.

Criteria in this case? The four pronged test:
1. I believed there was an immediate threat.
2. To myself or another person.
3. Of death or grave bodily harm.
4. Coupled with the means (theif and light, baton, knife, etc.) of carrying it through.

21 foot rule. Either way, within 7-10' had my BG wanted to, my situation could have gone from bad to deep S**t real quick.

Additionally, Arizona has the most stringent CCW permit licensing program in the U.S.. Arizona requires a 16 hour course and live fire qualification in addition to the customary background check. (No, I'm not suggesting 16 hours is enough to cover all topics by any means. Fortunately I have much more).

Further, I'll never forget the final test as created and required by the Arizona Department of Public Safety which asked if a criminal must be armed for deadly force to be used by a citizen against that criminal.

The answer is "No."

Now I'm not suggesting just start capping anyone who spits in your direction. Yet, in certain, very specific circumstances (in Arizona) an armed citizen may use deadly force against an UNarmed criminal.

John, I fully understand the ramifications of a shooting. It is VERY serious and a nightmare. We're talking incarertation, civil lawsuits, lots of legal expenses. An endless nightmare.

My last comment is that I'm glad someone of your caliber frequents this board and through your comments we may all understand more about our individual responsibilities of learning the legal and ethical ramifications of using firearms to defend ourselves and our families.

P.S. I do not own any "Kill 'em all and let god sort'em out." T-Shirts nor do I have a "kill 'em all attitude. Such Rambo types have no business carrying, nor do many of them have business with guns at all--not until they mature. (My final two cents)





[This message has been edited by DesertRat (edited December 09, 1999).]
 
I think John has a point in a way. Here in Texas it it legal to use deadly force to defend personal property (though personally, I decided long ago I never). In the county in which I live, they'd probably reimburse me the cost of the ammunition, but in another county (say, Travis), they'd probably hang me out to dry. It's probably going to me a local DA, grand jury and court (if it comes it) that will be making the decision (unless the Feds figure out someway to jump in, e.g., you violated the poor guy's civil reights).
 
Hey now, I've got a "kill 'em all and let God sort 'em out" T-shirt, of course it's got a picture of a rootworm on it so that may not count.

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"The best we can hope for concerning the people at large is that they be properly armed." -Alexander Hamilton, The Federalist Papers at 184-8.
 
Desert Rat: My caliber? Probably .22 short in the overall scheme of things.
I simply wanted you to SAY what you said in your last post so nobody would misunderstand.
Just one question: What if you "hold a suspected car thief" at gunpoint or with the threat of deadly force, the police arrive and say "I didn't see him commit any crime...YOU arrest him....." One of my officers (security) had this happen to him. Nearly an hour had elapsed. He had not Mirandized his "prisoner" and he had not placed manual caption on him. Want to guess what happened?
Further, to put things more in perspective, if somebody tried to steal my vehicle (a 1974 Chev pickup) my wife would run out into the driveway and make him sign a paper saying he would never bring it back. Really, my greatest concern at interrupting a property crime would be to have the SOB get out.
However, I do, seriously, appreciate your last post for the clarification of all forumites on these little understood aspects.
I do suggest that all of you read "Defensive Tactics by Jerry Usher" in the February, 2000 issue of Handguns (just now came in the mail). He tells it his way; what I posted is what my state's Criminal Justice Training Commission requires all instructors to tell their students.
And, I wasn't speaking directly to you about the "Kill 'em All" inscription, which has been used in court to prove prior intent, as has cocking the hammer of a SA/DA pistol(!)
 
Puddle Pirate: Years ago, somebody placed an ad for "the only positive way to kill root worms" for two dollars, postpaid. They received two small blocks of wood and an instruction sheet which read "Place worm on block A. Strike with block B."
 
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