I was looking at Ruger's Vaquero with the birds head grip, and thinking about getting one. What do people think about using it for a CCW? Now, before anybody goes off the deep end let me tell you I know the limitations of carrying a revolver and a single action at that. My main concern would be concealability and finding a good holster. Thanks for the help.
Single Action CCW
- Thread starter popbang
- Start date
don't shoot it's me
New member
You know what? Certain questions, only you can answer. And sometimes, if you have to ask, you already know the answer.
Marko Kloos
Inactive
It's the skill that makes the carpenter, not the hi-capacity titanium-handled hammer. I'd be more scared of a skilled gunslinger with a Vaquero than I'd be of an armchair commando with a Glock 17 and a bag of magazines.
Firepower is steel on target, not the number of bullets you can put in the air. Sure, the SA revolver has some drawbacks when compared to its DA counterparts, most notably slow reloads and manual operation of the hammer for every shot, but I bet there are folks out there who have enough practice with a SA to out-shoot most anybody on this board when it comes to putting six into the black at 7 yards in a speedy manner.
If you're comfortable with it, and you're confident in your skills, go for it. They make plenty of good holsters for SA revolvers, and they conceal just as well as DA revolvers in their size.
Firepower is steel on target, not the number of bullets you can put in the air. Sure, the SA revolver has some drawbacks when compared to its DA counterparts, most notably slow reloads and manual operation of the hammer for every shot, but I bet there are folks out there who have enough practice with a SA to out-shoot most anybody on this board when it comes to putting six into the black at 7 yards in a speedy manner.
If you're comfortable with it, and you're confident in your skills, go for it. They make plenty of good holsters for SA revolvers, and they conceal just as well as DA revolvers in their size.
I intend to build a CCW Vaquero ASAP 
. In .45ACP/LC, 4.6" barrel with an aftermarket bird's head or Lightning type grip frame.
In .45ACP you can use cheap GI 1911 mags as speedloaders, thumbing rounds into the gate. A tube-loader might be even faster, I look forward to the necessary experiments
. Brownell's also has a cylinder hone kit that used lightly, should allow nickle plated fired shells to drop free without using the ejector, at least for the first and possibly second cylinder full.
I believe it's critical use a Vaquero instead of a Blackhawk - the rear "overhang" sight on a BH screws up "knuckling" the hammer. Knuckling during the draw stroke in particular is crucial.
One issue is the light trigger pull. There's no way around it: you MUST take the time to really master this gun. Which is another reason you want a convertable with a 9mm or .45ACP option: so you can go to somebody like www.ammoman.com and stock up on Wolf or milsurp ball and shoot the hell out of it. Unless you reload - but as noted, the semi-auto rounds have other advantages related to reload speed.
Last, the front sight: if you get a stainless gun, you can modify the rear sight channel (CAREFULLY) to match the Tritium dot you can graft onto the factory front blade. What I'm considering is, Ashley makes tall, fat front sights for the AR15 that are "triangle shaped" in side view, with the Tritium dot at the top point. So it appears you could shorten it, and then cut a notch up the middle at the front that would let it at least partially "straddle" the factory blade. Then all you have to do is drill clean through everything from one side, and either pin it or bolt it into place. It would be removable for SASS matches, leaving only a couple holes in the front blade, no big deal. If the channel in the sight for the factory blade was oversize, you could use internal shims to adjust windage.
I'd take the black face of the front sight below the dot and cut a gradiated crosshatch in it, so that you could do repeatable front sight elevation "Elmer Keith style" for long-range shooting.
. In .45ACP/LC, 4.6" barrel with an aftermarket bird's head or Lightning type grip frame.In .45ACP you can use cheap GI 1911 mags as speedloaders, thumbing rounds into the gate. A tube-loader might be even faster, I look forward to the necessary experiments
. Brownell's also has a cylinder hone kit that used lightly, should allow nickle plated fired shells to drop free without using the ejector, at least for the first and possibly second cylinder full.I believe it's critical use a Vaquero instead of a Blackhawk - the rear "overhang" sight on a BH screws up "knuckling" the hammer. Knuckling during the draw stroke in particular is crucial.
One issue is the light trigger pull. There's no way around it: you MUST take the time to really master this gun. Which is another reason you want a convertable with a 9mm or .45ACP option: so you can go to somebody like www.ammoman.com and stock up on Wolf or milsurp ball and shoot the hell out of it. Unless you reload - but as noted, the semi-auto rounds have other advantages related to reload speed.
Last, the front sight: if you get a stainless gun, you can modify the rear sight channel (CAREFULLY) to match the Tritium dot you can graft onto the factory front blade
. What I'm considering is, Ashley makes tall, fat front sights for the AR15 that are "triangle shaped" in side view, with the Tritium dot at the top point. So it appears you could shorten it, and then cut a notch up the middle at the front that would let it at least partially "straddle" the factory blade. Then all you have to do is drill clean through everything from one side, and either pin it or bolt it into place. It would be removable for SASS matches, leaving only a couple holes in the front blade, no big deal. If the channel in the sight for the factory blade was oversize, you could use internal shims to adjust windage.I'd take the black face of the front sight below the dot and cut a gradiated crosshatch in it, so that you could do repeatable front sight elevation "Elmer Keith style" for long-range shooting
.Jim, it sounds like you have thought this through. I have a blackhawk that I use for hunting, and like you said the rear sight would snag. So, that is why I was thinking about the, and I figured if I was going to buy the gun, grip, and have the barrel shortened then why not just get it already made that way. It does sound like a neat idea though.
Heh. Ya, I've been planning this a while.
Several points: you can only get one cylinder with any of the factory 3.5" guns. There have been three Vaquero editions so far in the short barrel; the first was standard grip, .357, second was standard grip, .45LC, this third is the .45LC with factory Bird's head.
I recently had a chance to compare the handling of a 3.5" .357 standard grip with a 4.6" .45LC standard grip. It turns out that the "nose heaviness factor" is *identical* between them. The .45 barrel is lighter on a per-inch basis.
Second point: having a second cylinder fitted by a gunsmith after you buy the gun is more expensive than having the barrel chopped, by a small amount. So if you have a choice between getting the second cylinder now, or getting the short tube now, go with the second cylinder. Especially since a 4.6" barrel isn't all that crazy for concealment...if you can make that work, you get the advantage of a full-length ejector stroke.
Third: I'm not sure I like the looks of that factory bird's head. I see no quick way to "index it" in the hand. For accurate, fast fire, you want the grip to go into the same place in the hand for every shot. The NCO Lightning frame would be *killer* in that department, but I'm not sure it could handle big recoil if I wanted to load "bear killer" monster loads in the .45LC cylinder, such as Buffalo Bore's 325grain hardcast at 1,300fps. The Qualitas grip frame has promise; while it's got enough "distinctive shape" going on to allow indexing, it allows the typical SA "rollout" to happen under monster recoil. I'm going to have to think very carefully about those two aftermarket choices; for CCW at .45ACP power levels and below, I suspect the Lightning frame is the ultimate.
What else...you need a freewheel pawl by Power Custom. About $35, with complete and reputedly very good installation instructions. That allows you to spin the cylinder in BOTH directions, otherwise if you miss a shell insertion you have to go all the way around again to correct it. No good for a combat reload!
Links and descriptions for all these parts are here:
http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=80872
Several points: you can only get one cylinder with any of the factory 3.5" guns. There have been three Vaquero editions so far in the short barrel; the first was standard grip, .357, second was standard grip, .45LC, this third is the .45LC with factory Bird's head.
I recently had a chance to compare the handling of a 3.5" .357 standard grip with a 4.6" .45LC standard grip. It turns out that the "nose heaviness factor" is *identical* between them. The .45 barrel is lighter on a per-inch basis.
Second point: having a second cylinder fitted by a gunsmith after you buy the gun is more expensive than having the barrel chopped, by a small amount. So if you have a choice between getting the second cylinder now, or getting the short tube now, go with the second cylinder. Especially since a 4.6" barrel isn't all that crazy for concealment...if you can make that work, you get the advantage of a full-length ejector stroke.
Third: I'm not sure I like the looks of that factory bird's head. I see no quick way to "index it" in the hand. For accurate, fast fire, you want the grip to go into the same place in the hand for every shot. The NCO Lightning frame would be *killer* in that department, but I'm not sure it could handle big recoil if I wanted to load "bear killer" monster loads in the .45LC cylinder, such as Buffalo Bore's 325grain hardcast at 1,300fps
. The Qualitas grip frame has promise; while it's got enough "distinctive shape" going on to allow indexing, it allows the typical SA "rollout" to happen under monster recoil. I'm going to have to think very carefully about those two aftermarket choices; for CCW at .45ACP power levels and below, I suspect the Lightning frame is the ultimate.What else...you need a freewheel pawl by Power Custom. About $35, with complete and reputedly very good installation instructions. That allows you to spin the cylinder in BOTH directions, otherwise if you miss a shell insertion you have to go all the way around again to correct it. No good for a combat reload!
Links and descriptions for all these parts are here:
http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=80872
Jim, thanks for the thoughts, the more I think about it the more I think I'll give the factory sherrifs model a try. If I have problems with the grip I can always get the NCO lightening. As far as an extra cylinder I don't really want that. I already load for the 45 colt, and I'll just load some that work well.
Once I get it I'll give you a hollar and tell you how it is works.
Oh, now the next problem finding an IWB for it. Got any ideas?
Once I get it I'll give you a hollar and tell you how it is works.
Oh, now the next problem finding an IWB for it. Got any ideas?
Ask over at sixgunner.com http://disc.server.com/discussion.cgi?id=34422 a number of guys over there use their SA revolvers for CCW. Dennis
DennisMike Irwin
Staff
The only concern I would have about using a Vaquero for CCW is the slow reloading time.
I'd be a LOT more inclined to carry something like a reproduction S&W Schofield or No. 3 from Cimmaron.
I'd be a LOT more inclined to carry something like a reproduction S&W Schofield or No. 3 from Cimmaron.
PACKIN' PLASTIC
New member
Go for it, EASTWOOD!
You know, I thought long and hard about the Schofield break-tops.
Final analysis: forget it. There's a reason that design died out.
The Italian versions have labels all over 'em to the effect of "Cowboy loads ONLY". That means usually 230 - 250grainers doing less than 800fps, sometimes down near 650, but 750 being more common. That gives you pressure around, what, 14,000psi or less?
Some of the better commercial JHP defensive ammo will top that pressure, some up around 18,000 or even 20,000 for some of the Cor-Bon defensive .45LC. That's still not "+P" or "Ruger ONLY!!!", and can be shot in something like a Taurus 2" TI snubbie. This stuff is NOT recommended for the Italian break-tops, at least not in any quantity.
S&W was so worried about that sort of load being used, they made theirs in .45S&W which is a hair shorter so that stuff won't chamber. .45S&W is currently being loaded only in "Cowboy Ammo" at the low pressures stated already, and not any "defensive loads" whatsoever. I don't think any commercial hollowpoints exist in .45S&W, nor jacketed.
Throw a "Ruger ONLY!!!" .45LC+P in an Italian break-open .45LC, and it'll probably blow wide open. My bet would be on the latch failing but the hinge could Chernobyl too.
I think the solution to speedloading a Ruger SA is to go with a double-caliber .45 model, buy the Brownell's fine cylinder hone and polish the cylinders. The part number is in one of the links at this thread:
http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=80872
Then experiment, and see if the .45LC or .45ACP tends to drop free quicker. You also want to chamfer the back edge of the cylinder bores, so if you start with stainless you can do that without needing to re-blue.
If the .45ACP is working, speedload either from tubes or GI 1911 mags. 45LC would be a tube-only proposition but might otherwise work great. I suspect .45ACP from tubes would be better because with no rim, the plastic tube diameter could be smaller and should fit "into" the loading gate better.
You also want the Power Custom freewheel pawl...again, see that thread above.
Final analysis: forget it. There's a reason that design died out.
The Italian versions have labels all over 'em to the effect of "Cowboy loads ONLY". That means usually 230 - 250grainers doing less than 800fps, sometimes down near 650, but 750 being more common. That gives you pressure around, what, 14,000psi or less?
Some of the better commercial JHP defensive ammo will top that pressure, some up around 18,000 or even 20,000 for some of the Cor-Bon defensive .45LC. That's still not "+P" or "Ruger ONLY!!!", and can be shot in something like a Taurus 2" TI snubbie. This stuff is NOT recommended for the Italian break-tops, at least not in any quantity.
S&W was so worried about that sort of load being used, they made theirs in .45S&W which is a hair shorter so that stuff won't chamber. .45S&W is currently being loaded only in "Cowboy Ammo" at the low pressures stated already, and not any "defensive loads" whatsoever. I don't think any commercial hollowpoints exist in .45S&W, nor jacketed.
Throw a "Ruger ONLY!!!" .45LC+P in an Italian break-open .45LC, and it'll probably blow wide open. My bet would be on the latch failing but the hinge could Chernobyl too.
I think the solution to speedloading a Ruger SA is to go with a double-caliber .45 model, buy the Brownell's fine cylinder hone and polish the cylinders. The part number is in one of the links at this thread:
http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=80872
Then experiment, and see if the .45LC or .45ACP tends to drop free quicker. You also want to chamfer the back edge of the cylinder bores, so if you start with stainless you can do that without needing to re-blue.
If the .45ACP is working, speedload either from tubes or GI 1911 mags. 45LC would be a tube-only proposition but might otherwise work great. I suspect .45ACP from tubes would be better because with no rim, the plastic tube diameter could be smaller and should fit "into" the loading gate better.
You also want the Power Custom freewheel pawl...again, see that thread above.