Silly WW2 .30 cal. question....
- Thread starter jaughtman
- Start date
Some reading material.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M1919_Browning_machine_gun
The .30'06 used by the military was all the same. Most often used was the AP armor piercing round. Too many logistics issues to have different rounds, the same caliber with different loadings bullet weights and powder charges.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M1919_Browning_machine_gun
The .30'06 used by the military was all the same. Most often used was the AP armor piercing round. Too many logistics issues to have different rounds, the same caliber with different loadings bullet weights and powder charges.
All those weapons can safely fire any .30-'06 issue ammunition. That does not mean that users of all weapons were issued all ammo. Belt-fed machineguns normally were issued ammo in belts loaded 4 AP (or ball) and 1 tracer. M1 rifle clips were normally loaded with AP. Ball was used in training but rarely was issued in combat because of the need to penetrate light armor, vehicles and the like.
BAR ammo was usually AP, issued in boxes, with magazines loaded by the gunner and assistant gunner. M1 clips were occasionally loaded from boxes, but as a rule they were pre-loaded, issued in cans containing bandoliers of six clips each.
.30 Carbine ammunition could be used only in the .30 Carbine; it is not the same as other .30 caliber ammo.
FWIW, from late 1941 to late 1945, Frankford Arsenal, the army's main ammunition factory, produced about 1.5 million rounds of .30 ammunition a day. Contractor factories produced at about the same rate, but started later.
Jim
BAR ammo was usually AP, issued in boxes, with magazines loaded by the gunner and assistant gunner. M1 clips were occasionally loaded from boxes, but as a rule they were pre-loaded, issued in cans containing bandoliers of six clips each.
.30 Carbine ammunition could be used only in the .30 Carbine; it is not the same as other .30 caliber ammo.
FWIW, from late 1941 to late 1945, Frankford Arsenal, the army's main ammunition factory, produced about 1.5 million rounds of .30 ammunition a day. Contractor factories produced at about the same rate, but started later.
Jim
darkroommike
New member
Almost without exception it was M2 ball ammo for .30 rifles and machine guns. Exceptions abound, belted machine gun ammo was loaded 1 in 5 tracer with 4 AP. Loose ammo, which could end up in box magazines for BAR, Garand clips or reloaded into belts would be M2.
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All those weapons can safely fire any .30-'06 issue ammunition. That does not mean that users of all weapons were issued all ammo. Belt-fed machineguns normally were issued ammo in belts loaded 4 AP (or ball) and 1 tracer. M1 rifle clips were normally loaded with AP. Ball was used in training but rarely was issued in combat because of the need to penetrate light armor, vehicles and the like. Specialty ammo, such as incendiary and frangible ball, was issued in limited quantities for special needs.
BAR ammo was usually AP, issued in boxes, with magazines loaded by the gunner and assistant gunner. M1 clips were occasionally loaded from boxes, but as a rule they were pre-loaded, issued in cans containing bandoliers of six clips each. Ammunition for the M1903 was issued in bandoliers containing 60 rounds of 5 round clips, normally also AP.
.30 Carbine ammunition could be used only in the .30 Carbine; it is not the same as other .30 caliber ammo.
FWIW, from late 1941 to late 1945, Frankford Arsenal, the army's main ammunition factory, produced about 1.5 million rounds of .30 ammunition a day. Contractor factories produced at about the same rate, but started later.
Jim
BAR ammo was usually AP, issued in boxes, with magazines loaded by the gunner and assistant gunner. M1 clips were occasionally loaded from boxes, but as a rule they were pre-loaded, issued in cans containing bandoliers of six clips each. Ammunition for the M1903 was issued in bandoliers containing 60 rounds of 5 round clips, normally also AP.
.30 Carbine ammunition could be used only in the .30 Carbine; it is not the same as other .30 caliber ammo.
FWIW, from late 1941 to late 1945, Frankford Arsenal, the army's main ammunition factory, produced about 1.5 million rounds of .30 ammunition a day. Contractor factories produced at about the same rate, but started later.
Jim
carguychris
New member
Wasn't there also an incendiary round for use in aircraft machine guns?
I go by the FA at least once a month because my Anodizer is just around the corner on Comly St. I never realized what the place was until now. Shame, it is being torn down a section at a time. I went to a furniture sale within the arsenal walls a couple years ago. They should have been holding tours of the factory instead of reducing it to rubble.
Ammunition for the M1903 was normally issued in clips, in bandoliers. Like ammunition for the M1, it was normally AP, not ball, for the reasons I mentioned.
Incendiary was used in aircraft guns, but except at the beginning of the war, few a/c machineguns were .30 caliber. As soon as it became possible, both fighter wing guns and bomber guns were changed to .50 caliber. Some .30 guns were in use throughout the war in rear flexible mounts on planes like the SBD, where wing guns were .50's.
Jim
Incendiary was used in aircraft guns, but except at the beginning of the war, few a/c machineguns were .30 caliber. As soon as it became possible, both fighter wing guns and bomber guns were changed to .50 caliber. Some .30 guns were in use throughout the war in rear flexible mounts on planes like the SBD, where wing guns were .50's.
Jim
tahunua001
New member
yes and no.
if I recall correctly, and I rarely do:
the all three were chambered in 30-06, however the BAR and light MG were designed to shoot the M1 cartridge and it's derivatives(tracers, AP, etc). however the M1 garand could not handle prolonged use of the M1 cartridge and modifications to the charge and weight were made so while all three could shoot the new M2 ball load and it's derivatives(AP, tracer, etc) only the previous 2 could shoot the M1.
if I recall correctly, and I rarely do:
the all three were chambered in 30-06, however the BAR and light MG were designed to shoot the M1 cartridge and it's derivatives(tracers, AP, etc). however the M1 garand could not handle prolonged use of the M1 cartridge and modifications to the charge and weight were made so while all three could shoot the new M2 ball load and it's derivatives(AP, tracer, etc) only the previous 2 could shoot the M1.
30-06
The standard mil loading for the M1 was 150 grain bullet at about 2650 fps. After the invasion of France and once out of the hedgerows, Infantry started using the machine gun loading for longer ranges. The machine gun and bar all were interchangeable rounds. The reasoning for the change to the 172 grain machine gun round was that the 150 grain bullet was not effective at the longer ranges in the open country. Recoil was bad but the heaver bullet did the job nicely. For my match load for the M1 is 46.3 grains of IMR 4895 with the Sierra match bullet I have never bent an operating rod or have I ever had any problems with ejection of the spent case's.
The standard mil loading for the M1 was 150 grain bullet at about 2650 fps. After the invasion of France and once out of the hedgerows, Infantry started using the machine gun loading for longer ranges. The machine gun and bar all were interchangeable rounds. The reasoning for the change to the 172 grain machine gun round was that the 150 grain bullet was not effective at the longer ranges in the open country. Recoil was bad but the heaver bullet did the job nicely. For my match load for the M1 is 46.3 grains of IMR 4895 with the Sierra match bullet I have never bent an operating rod or have I ever had any problems with ejection of the spent case's.
There was no "machinegun round" in .30 caliber. The ammo in question was probably AP, which fired a 168 grain boat-tail bullet at 2775 fps. It was more powerful than ball and was considered more accurate, so much so that it was preferred by many military and civilian target shooters after the war.
While some ball ammo was used in combat, the preference was for AP. The figures are interesting. In the early part of the war, the overall issue was 60% ball, 20% AP and 20% tracer. By 1943, that had changed to 80% AP and 20% tracer, with no ball ammunition issued in combat.
The story that the M1 rifle could not handle M1 Ball was simply not true. The rifle was originally designed and made for that round, since it was the standard when Garand was working on his rifle. (The M2 Ball was not standardized until January 1940.) Many tests showed that functioning was slightly better with the M2 Ball, but stories that rifles blew up with the M1 cartridge are absurd.
Jim
While some ball ammo was used in combat, the preference was for AP. The figures are interesting. In the early part of the war, the overall issue was 60% ball, 20% AP and 20% tracer. By 1943, that had changed to 80% AP and 20% tracer, with no ball ammunition issued in combat.
The story that the M1 rifle could not handle M1 Ball was simply not true. The rifle was originally designed and made for that round, since it was the standard when Garand was working on his rifle. (The M2 Ball was not standardized until January 1940.) Many tests showed that functioning was slightly better with the M2 Ball, but stories that rifles blew up with the M1 cartridge are absurd.
Jim
Yes.
Something to bear in mind is that while there was different .30-'06 ammo in inventory, it was all safe to fire in the various firearms that chambered it. M1 ball [not necessarily for the M1 rifle: ah, the wonders of the military's change to the "M" numbering system vs. the old "model of..." setup!
] had a heavier bullet than the later M2 150gr loading. M1 AP did show up used in almost everything later in the war [~'44 on] but prior to that the M2 ball would have been found in clips for the M1 rifle, while the machine gun belts would have almost all been M1 ball [for the longer-range defilade fire the machine gunners were trained how to lay in, but almost never actually used. "Always fighting the last war..." etc. etc.]
The BAR would have probably had the widest variation of ammo in normal use. Don't know if it was only a Korea thing, but my dad said they used to pull the tracer out of the machine gun links & replace it with regular ball, and then load up select BAR mags w/ all tracer: the BAR men would then pop in a mag of tracer & triangulate fire on an area target for the heavy machine guns to interdict; the belt-feds could then fire w/o giving away their position w/ a stream of tracers, and the BAR men could boogie for safer climes in the tumult...
Something to bear in mind is that while there was different .30-'06 ammo in inventory, it was all safe to fire in the various firearms that chambered it. M1 ball [not necessarily for the M1 rifle: ah, the wonders of the military's change to the "M" numbering system vs. the old "model of..." setup!
] had a heavier bullet than the later M2 150gr loading. M1 AP did show up used in almost everything later in the war [~'44 on] but prior to that the M2 ball would have been found in clips for the M1 rifle, while the machine gun belts would have almost all been M1 ball [for the longer-range defilade fire the machine gunners were trained how to lay in, but almost never actually used. "Always fighting the last war..." etc. etc.] The BAR would have probably had the widest variation of ammo in normal use. Don't know if it was only a Korea thing, but my dad said they used to pull the tracer out of the machine gun links & replace it with regular ball, and then load up select BAR mags w/ all tracer: the BAR men would then pop in a mag of tracer & triangulate fire on an area target for the heavy machine guns to interdict; the belt-feds could then fire w/o giving away their position w/ a stream of tracers, and the BAR men could boogie for safer climes in the tumult...
tahunua001
New member
just like to point out that I didn't say anything about blown up M1s or oprods sticking out of peoples heads(I know you love that little myth). I simply said that prolonged use of the M1 cartridge was not recommended and that the M2 performed better in the M1 rifle.
speaking of blown up M1s, anyone care to guess how this happened?
Mike Irwin
Staff
"There was no "machinegun round" in .30 caliber"
Early in the war there was, by default -- left-over boat tailed 172-gr. Ball M1 ammunition that had been adopted post WW I to give better performance in Browning machine guns.
When the flat base 150-gr. Ball M2 round was adopted in 1938, there were hundreds of millions of rounds of Ball M1 in US inventory.
It was segregated as quickly as possible and reserved primarily for use in Army Air Corps aircraft, many of which were still armed wtih .30-cal. Browning machine guns.
As far as I know, the last of the Ball M1 machine gun ammunition was used up by the Navy in aircraft like the Curtiss Helldiver, some variants of which had dual .30 Brownings in the rear turret.
According to some sources, Ball M1 was much more accurate than Ball M2 (and also had significantly better ballistics due to the boattail configuration), so some was retained for marksman/sniper use during the war.
Early in the war there was, by default -- left-over boat tailed 172-gr. Ball M1 ammunition that had been adopted post WW I to give better performance in Browning machine guns.
When the flat base 150-gr. Ball M2 round was adopted in 1938, there were hundreds of millions of rounds of Ball M1 in US inventory.
It was segregated as quickly as possible and reserved primarily for use in Army Air Corps aircraft, many of which were still armed wtih .30-cal. Browning machine guns.
As far as I know, the last of the Ball M1 machine gun ammunition was used up by the Navy in aircraft like the Curtiss Helldiver, some variants of which had dual .30 Brownings in the rear turret.
According to some sources, Ball M1 was much more accurate than Ball M2 (and also had significantly better ballistics due to the boattail configuration), so some was retained for marksman/sniper use during the war.
Mike Irwin
Staff
Regarding the Garand and Ball M1 ammunition, it's always been my understanding that the issues that have always been talked about took hundreds, or even thousands, of rounds to show up, and it's not the issue that it's apparently grown into.
I have heard/read several versions of how the M1 ball ammo caused M1 rifles to "blow up" or various other stories, some dating to the time when Johnson fans were spreading all kinds of rumors about the M1 rifle. AFAIK the "op rod" myth was much more recent, being spread by one man on the internet.
As to the video, it looks like there was a misfire, she loaded the next round, and the case let go. In spite of the profanity-laden rant by some fool on the site, I suspect a squib load with a bullet left in the barrel; we don't know the condition of the barrel, which should have split or at least bulged if that were the case. It was not a "slam fire"; she pulled the trigger.
Jim
As to the video, it looks like there was a misfire, she loaded the next round, and the case let go. In spite of the profanity-laden rant by some fool on the site, I suspect a squib load with a bullet left in the barrel; we don't know the condition of the barrel, which should have split or at least bulged if that were the case. It was not a "slam fire"; she pulled the trigger.
Jim
Mike Irwin
Staff
"It was not a "slam fire"; she pulled the trigger."
Well, technically (or not so technically) when the trigger was pulled the firing pin slammed into the primer, so.....
Well, technically (or not so technically) when the trigger was pulled the firing pin slammed into the primer, so.....
Then there was the Garand, the Garand M1 chamber was cut with additional clearance. There are those that claim the old guys could not hold close tolerances, then there are those that claim the M1 Garand chamber had an additional .00025" clearance for feed and extraction.
F. Guffey
F. Guffey
Shooter 973
New member
30 cal. ammo
My father dragged a BAR From Guadalcanal thru Saipan. The ammo he used the most was the Black Tip armor peircing round. He said it gave him "good" penetration on barriers. He had his assitant gunner scrounge Black Tip every chance he got.
My father dragged a BAR From Guadalcanal thru Saipan. The ammo he used the most was the Black Tip armor peircing round. He said it gave him "good" penetration on barriers. He had his assitant gunner scrounge Black Tip every chance he got.