Another question here guys. I have been shooting for years, but not often as no good place around to do it. I hear people talk about find the front sight as a critical point. What good is front sight alignment if you don't have front and rear in alignment? My old eyes just can't align front, rear, and target all at same time anymore, but I still enjoy just seeing dirt fly around a tin can and hearing it go bang at least. Just curious as why always refer to front sight? triker
Sight alignment question
- Thread starter triker
- Start date
Just a guess but I think it has something to do with the short barrel of a handgun. By focusing on the front sight you maintain better control for keeping the gun straight since it is so much closer to your eye than the target. If you look at the target it's much easier to have the barrell drift and even a small drift with a short barrel will make a big difference 20 feet or more down range. The idea is to keep the gun steady while you pull the trigger, which involve two different muscle groups that normally want to work together but for firing a handgun have to be independent. You really can't do this well if you aren't focusing on what the gun is doing. Hence the focus on the front sight and not the target.
Also lifting your eyes to see where the shot went can be a bad habit since you end up losing focus on the front sight. Concentrate on focusing on the front sight and not having it move off the sight picture. It's fun to see what your hitting but can effect accuracy.
Also lifting your eyes to see where the shot went can be a bad habit since you end up losing focus on the front sight. Concentrate on focusing on the front sight and not having it move off the sight picture. It's fun to see what your hitting but can effect accuracy.
If I'm not focusing on the front sight, I don't have a good idea if my front sight is centered with the same daylight showing between the sides of it and the rear blade / rear sight. Without focusing on the front sight I don't have a good idea if it is dipping below the plane of the rear sight or if it's level with the rear sights. I only have a "fuzzy" idea of where the front sight os and what the muzzle of the weapon is doing...
You have to see the front sight if you plan on hitting anything consistently. Sight Alignment is critical, without it you're wasting ammo.
I'm old and my eyes have gone south. On stainless guns it's worse. What I did was to put florescent orange paint on my front sight of my Model 64 (ICORE revolver)
Now that bright sight jumps right out at you, can't help but see it. Now it seems I can shoot my Model 64 better then any of my target pistols.
I did it to my Beretta 92 also. It has white three dot sights. I put the orange paint in the front sight covering the white dot. I now can shoot my 92 much better.
Try it, if it don't work all you have to do is clean it off.
I'm old and my eyes have gone south. On stainless guns it's worse. What I did was to put florescent orange paint on my front sight of my Model 64 (ICORE revolver)
Now that bright sight jumps right out at you, can't help but see it. Now it seems I can shoot my Model 64 better then any of my target pistols.
I did it to my Beretta 92 also. It has white three dot sights. I put the orange paint in the front sight covering the white dot. I now can shoot my 92 much better.
Try it, if it don't work all you have to do is clean it off.
Like most guys I'm getting older and my eyes are getting worser. Here's what I do for those that shoot handguns like me, for pleasure, not for all you X-box seal team 6 guys.
If I'm outside, bright light, gernerally I'm good with anything and get a decent sight picture. I often shoot a Styer LP10 10 meter air gun in my basement [crummy light] or a .45 indoor 50' [crummier light]. A few years ago I bought a mid priced set of Champions shooting glasses that allow for a few lenses for your shooting eye, a merit type diopter that is frame fixed, and a translucent or opaque cover for the off eye that allows for 2 eye open, low strain shooting. When you consider what most guys own in guns dropping a hundered bucks or so with a setup like this is great. It allows front and rear, sharp sight image with very slightly blurred target and your eyes feel like they're 16 again. Try it, you will not be dissappointed.
If I'm outside, bright light, gernerally I'm good with anything and get a decent sight picture. I often shoot a Styer LP10 10 meter air gun in my basement [crummy light] or a .45 indoor 50' [crummier light]. A few years ago I bought a mid priced set of Champions shooting glasses that allow for a few lenses for your shooting eye, a merit type diopter that is frame fixed, and a translucent or opaque cover for the off eye that allows for 2 eye open, low strain shooting. When you consider what most guys own in guns dropping a hundered bucks or so with a setup like this is great. It allows front and rear, sharp sight image with very slightly blurred target and your eyes feel like they're 16 again. Try it, you will not be dissappointed.
stick-on bifocal lenses
If I look through the reading part of my glasses, I can see pistol sights, but can't see the target at all. Also, the reading part of the bifocal is below the usual line of sight, so I have to tip my head back to use that part of the lens.
I've had pretty good results using a stick-on reading lens in the middle of the shooting-side lens of my shooting glasses, and keeping both eyes open.
I've found the stick-on lenses at dive shops and online; about $10 a pair.
-Mark
Getting old isn't for sissies.
If I look through the reading part of my glasses, I can see pistol sights, but can't see the target at all. Also, the reading part of the bifocal is below the usual line of sight, so I have to tip my head back to use that part of the lens.
I've had pretty good results using a stick-on reading lens in the middle of the shooting-side lens of my shooting glasses, and keeping both eyes open.
I've found the stick-on lenses at dive shops and online; about $10 a pair.
-Mark
Getting old isn't for sissies.
Focus on the front sight, and front sight only.
Everything else (target & rear sight) will be out of focus.
If necessary, get a pair of fixed-focus glasses set at 28-30 inches -- the distance
of that front sight at the end of your arm/hand (It'll also help with iron-sighted rifles
at that same distance.)
Improve the out-of-focus elements with the Merit aperture if necessary.
But Front sight crispness is the essential element
Everything else (target & rear sight) will be out of focus.
If necessary, get a pair of fixed-focus glasses set at 28-30 inches -- the distance
of that front sight at the end of your arm/hand (It'll also help with iron-sighted rifles
at that same distance.)
Improve the out-of-focus elements with the Merit aperture if necessary.
But Front sight crispness is the essential element
Gabe Suarez explained it well when he pointed out that: If you're CONCENTRATING on the front sight, you won't jerk the trigger because your mind really can't focus on the trigger pull and sight alignment at the same time. He's correct when he points out that few shooters understand that basic principle, as evidenced by the many different opinions on why we concentrate on the front sight.
Things are different in rifle shooting, since the sight is far enough away that both the target and sight are pretty close to being in focus.
If you don't concentrate (for us old geezers, it may not be in focus) on the front sight, you tend not to follow through. There's a delay between the time your brain says "shoot" and when you actually do.
You drop the gun and the shot goes low and you don't understand how you missed the target. "Dang, the sights were right there when I shot".
NO! your sights were right there when your brain said shoot, but not when the shot broke--you gave up and quit because you thought your job was done.
Same principle applies to the wingshooter who stops swinging when his brain says shoot and doesn't keep swinging. He shoots behind the bird.
Dont forget, the rest of the sight picture is important, also, even if rear sight is fuzzy (and it will be). Top of front sight even with top of rear, with equal amount of daylight on each side of sight. If you aim with dot, instead of top of sight, then that's an adjustment you have to make. Either put the dot on the target with the sight picture described above, or raise the dot so it's center is even the top of the front sight. Depends on how the gun zeroes.
I like the dot because it provides quicker target acquisition with my eyes. The squared sight is more precise, which my eyes can no longer take advantage of.
Things are different in rifle shooting, since the sight is far enough away that both the target and sight are pretty close to being in focus.
If you don't concentrate (for us old geezers, it may not be in focus) on the front sight, you tend not to follow through. There's a delay between the time your brain says "shoot" and when you actually do.
You drop the gun and the shot goes low and you don't understand how you missed the target. "Dang, the sights were right there when I shot".
NO! your sights were right there when your brain said shoot, but not when the shot broke--you gave up and quit because you thought your job was done.
Same principle applies to the wingshooter who stops swinging when his brain says shoot and doesn't keep swinging. He shoots behind the bird.
Dont forget, the rest of the sight picture is important, also, even if rear sight is fuzzy (and it will be). Top of front sight even with top of rear, with equal amount of daylight on each side of sight. If you aim with dot, instead of top of sight, then that's an adjustment you have to make. Either put the dot on the target with the sight picture described above, or raise the dot so it's center is even the top of the front sight. Depends on how the gun zeroes.
I like the dot because it provides quicker target acquisition with my eyes. The squared sight is more precise, which my eyes can no longer take advantage of.
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Well, I guess I didn't really emphasize the fact that most all of my shooting is SD practice. I'm stuck with the glasses I wear everyday. Day or night, good shooting conditions or poor.
I forget that many are still trying to work things out just so they can continue to enjoy target shooting. Some of you have some good ideas in that regard.
For myself, SD practice using silhouette or steel is enjoyable enough so that it takes the place of bullseye, or precision shooting.
When I feel like just having fun, I tend to take along the .22 rifle.
I forget that many are still trying to work things out just so they can continue to enjoy target shooting. Some of you have some good ideas in that regard.
For myself, SD practice using silhouette or steel is enjoyable enough so that it takes the place of bullseye, or precision shooting.
When I feel like just having fun, I tend to take along the .22 rifle.
Standing Wolf
Member in memoriam
Amen. If that doesn't let you focus on the front sight, it's time to abandon ship and switch to a red dot sight. I don't mean a laser sight. I mean a red dot sight. I swear by http://www.ultradotusa.com/ sights.
Scharfschuetzer
New member
Sight allignment
The main reason to focus on the front sight is that it is the best way to maintain sight allignment, which is the most crital aspect of sighting a weapon.
When using iron sights, a lack of sight allignment causes an angular error that increases with range. This angular error is exacerbated by the short sight radius on the average pistol compared to the longer SR of a rifle.
A second part of sighting is "sight picture." Sight picture assumes perfect sight alligmnent at the point of the target that you wish to hit. Good sight allignment with a poor sight picture anywhere on the target will result in a hit on the target at the point where the sights were looking at the instant of firing. This error is not nearly as bad as a sight allignment error which can cause you to miss the target at distance even though it looked like the sights were on it.
The human eye can only focus on one point at a time. This is much like the lense on a camera and you often hear photographers discussing depth of field regarding this. This applies to shooting too and with the close proximity of the sights on a weapon to your eye, you can generally only focus on one point and the good shot when using his sights will always focus on the front sight. As with the camera at macro distances, only the front sight will be in focus. Accept the slight bluriness of the rear sight and the target.
The Merrit sighting disk acts as a primitive camera lense and with smaller apertures (it's adjustable just like an old camera lense's F-Stop) increases your depth of field or the distance which you can focus on the front sight.
With older eyes, presbyopia (hardening of the eye's lense) sets in and you loose the ability to focus at closer distances. That is the reason we older folks wear reading glasses or bifocals. The above suggestion to get glasses with a focus point of about where your front sight is is spot on. My employer provides me with such glasses which are also hardened against fragment impact.
A telescope sight or a dot style sight takes the allignment question out of the sighting equation and allows us to see just the sight picture (dot or cross hairs) on the target.
You can still do good shooting with presbyopia though, just pay close attention to getting a proper perscription for your shooting glasses and watch that front sight.
The main reason to focus on the front sight is that it is the best way to maintain sight allignment, which is the most crital aspect of sighting a weapon.
When using iron sights, a lack of sight allignment causes an angular error that increases with range. This angular error is exacerbated by the short sight radius on the average pistol compared to the longer SR of a rifle.
A second part of sighting is "sight picture." Sight picture assumes perfect sight alligmnent at the point of the target that you wish to hit. Good sight allignment with a poor sight picture anywhere on the target will result in a hit on the target at the point where the sights were looking at the instant of firing. This error is not nearly as bad as a sight allignment error which can cause you to miss the target at distance even though it looked like the sights were on it.
The human eye can only focus on one point at a time. This is much like the lense on a camera and you often hear photographers discussing depth of field regarding this. This applies to shooting too and with the close proximity of the sights on a weapon to your eye, you can generally only focus on one point and the good shot when using his sights will always focus on the front sight. As with the camera at macro distances, only the front sight will be in focus. Accept the slight bluriness of the rear sight and the target.
The Merrit sighting disk acts as a primitive camera lense and with smaller apertures (it's adjustable just like an old camera lense's F-Stop) increases your depth of field or the distance which you can focus on the front sight.
With older eyes, presbyopia (hardening of the eye's lense) sets in and you loose the ability to focus at closer distances. That is the reason we older folks wear reading glasses or bifocals. The above suggestion to get glasses with a focus point of about where your front sight is is spot on. My employer provides me with such glasses which are also hardened against fragment impact.
A telescope sight or a dot style sight takes the allignment question out of the sighting equation and allows us to see just the sight picture (dot or cross hairs) on the target.
You can still do good shooting with presbyopia though, just pay close attention to getting a proper perscription for your shooting glasses and watch that front sight.
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HighValleyRanch
New member
^^^^^WELCOME!
Excellent first post. Here is a man who knows!
Sight alignment equal triangular error which magnifies with distance.
Pistol being the tip of the triangle, and the distant target at the base.
Sight picture (as long as there is perfect sight alignment) is more of a parallel difference so error is not as magnified.
And that is why sight alignment is paramount to sight picture and THAT is why one focuses on the front sight.
Of course at close SD ranges this is not so critical.
Excellent first post. Here is a man who knows!
Sight alignment equal triangular error which magnifies with distance.
Pistol being the tip of the triangle, and the distant target at the base.
Sight picture (as long as there is perfect sight alignment) is more of a parallel difference so error is not as magnified.
And that is why sight alignment is paramount to sight picture and THAT is why one focuses on the front sight.
Of course at close SD ranges this is not so critical.
Scharfschuetzer
New member
Thanks for the welcome Highvalleyranch!
A quick formula that is useful for determining sight movement to zero a weapon can also be used to demonstrate the angular error aspect.
Sight radius in inches divided by range in inches times error on target in inches.
So with a 7" sight radius (4" revolver) at 25 yards and a 10" error it would look like this:
7" / 900" = .0077" X 10" = .077"
Thus a .077 error in sight allignment equals a 10" error on target at 25 yards.
Now at 50 yards, that same .077 allignment error will be an error on target of 20" which would be enough to miss a tango by several inches and at 100 yards it would be a miss of 40" or more than a yard.
A quick formula that is useful for determining sight movement to zero a weapon can also be used to demonstrate the angular error aspect.
Sight radius in inches divided by range in inches times error on target in inches.
So with a 7" sight radius (4" revolver) at 25 yards and a 10" error it would look like this:
7" / 900" = .0077" X 10" = .077"
Thus a .077 error in sight allignment equals a 10" error on target at 25 yards.
Now at 50 yards, that same .077 allignment error will be an error on target of 20" which would be enough to miss a tango by several inches and at 100 yards it would be a miss of 40" or more than a yard.
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No, it acts as an iris and reduces the size of the 'circle of confusion' for items that are out of focus on the retina (the eye has depth of field just like any focused optical system using lenses).
If the circle of confusion is small enough it shows as an apparent increase in depth of field of the optical device.
Things appear 'sharp' over a wider range of distances.
It is far simpler than any lens, and the reason pinhole cameras have nearly infinite depth of field.
As you step the iris down the depth of field increase.
The down side is the brightness also decreases.
While it may not be useful in 'combat' shooting, it is useful in learning how to shoot accurately.
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HighValleyRanch
New member
I think the person you quoted meant a pinhole camera but mistakenly wrote primitive lens. At least that was how I read it.
So you are both in agreement!
Have used a merit in bullseye shooting. It is the opposite of the clear sight lens. One attempts to put all the fields into focus, i.e. front and rear sight, and target. The clear sight is more like reading glasses where the focus is on a clear front sight, and the target is a blur.
Problem with the merit is that it has no "merit" in actual daily use.
So training with it creates its own problems.
With poorer eyesight with age, I try to practice both with reading glasses for clear front sight and blurry target, and no glasses with target clear, and sight blurred.
Scharfschuetzer
New member
Yes, a matter of semantics I guess. By lense I meant the mechanism of a camera lense which, to me, includes the iris. The point being that you can increase your depth of focus via the aperture in the Merit Disk's iris, as with the camera iris.
Speaking of the Merit Disk, In addition to the pistol model that attaches via a suction cup to your classes, they make a version that screws into Lyman or Redfield peep sights. I use them on my match rifles (.22 and center fire) with good success.
Speaking of the Merit Disk, In addition to the pistol model that attaches via a suction cup to your classes, they make a version that screws into Lyman or Redfield peep sights. I use them on my match rifles (.22 and center fire) with good success.
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It allows you to learn the mechanics of holding, aiming, and trigger pull.
Once you have those under good control you can learn to deal with aging eyes.
It is far easier to cope with one thing when the fundamentals are in good shape.
Practice with a merit attachment (or even just apertures in electrical tape on the shooting glasses) allows you to be sure the other mechanics are NOT the issue.
Now you learn how to deal with presbyopia and the the hazards of getting old.
Getting old is not for sissies.
And giving up is not really an option.
Once you have those under good control you can learn to deal with aging eyes.
It is far easier to cope with one thing when the fundamentals are in good shape.
Practice with a merit attachment (or even just apertures in electrical tape on the shooting glasses) allows you to be sure the other mechanics are NOT the issue.
Now you learn how to deal with presbyopia and the the hazards of getting old.
Getting old is not for sissies.
And giving up is not really an option.