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Sig p320 recall?
- Thread starter bspillman
- Start date
Cheapshooter
New member
Unneeded, but what the heck, I sent mine in. Got it back with a slightly smoother trigger. Slightly because it was pretty darn good before.
My 2 cents.
You are carrying/using a firearm that can potentially fire when you don’t want it to, however rare and or isolated or a chance that might be. I wouldn’t necessarily worry about myself as much as the off chance I fat fingered the gun, dropped it and killed a neighbor, bystander or loved one.
Point is original guns are not 100% drop safe and that is a potential issue to you and those around you no matter how small the chance.
No I have personally never dropped a gun yet.
No I don’t think the 320 is garbage
No I don’t think the 320 is a machine gun ready to go off if dropped
Yes I know lots of folks carry series 70 1911s
I just think if you can do something to mitigate a risk of injury, especially to others, it is a responsibility to do so.
And don’t run with scissors, or sit too close to the TV, you’ll shoot your eye out and get off my lawn.
You are carrying/using a firearm that can potentially fire when you don’t want it to, however rare and or isolated or a chance that might be. I wouldn’t necessarily worry about myself as much as the off chance I fat fingered the gun, dropped it and killed a neighbor, bystander or loved one.
Point is original guns are not 100% drop safe and that is a potential issue to you and those around you no matter how small the chance.
No I have personally never dropped a gun yet.
No I don’t think the 320 is garbage
No I don’t think the 320 is a machine gun ready to go off if dropped
Yes I know lots of folks carry series 70 1911s
I just think if you can do something to mitigate a risk of injury, especially to others, it is a responsibility to do so.
And don’t run with scissors, or sit too close to the TV, you’ll shoot your eye out and get off my lawn.
Point is original guns are not 100% drop safe and that is a potential issue to you and those around you no matter how small the chance.
Does not create a fair perception.
The SIG 320 passed the same standards every pistol sold in the United States must meet.
Only when exceeding ANSI/SAAMI Z299.5-2016 drop test by 20% in height on a CONCRETE surface instead of the normal rubber surface and at angle not tested or required did the SIG exhibit POTENTIAL for malfunctions.
That pretty much means every other manufacturer has an untested weapon that has the potential to discharge until they meet the same standard.
That is why we practice safe weapon handling.
That SIG has chosen to undertake a voluntary recall speaks volumes about the companies commitment to their product and customers.
The ANSI/SAAMI Z299.5-2016 drop test requires:
With the firearm in the "Safe Carrying" condition, the firearm shall be capable of passing the below test criteria for drop testing from a height of four (4) feet (1.22 m) onto a 85±5 Durometer (Shore A) rubber mat, one (1) inch thick (2.54 cm), backed by concrete.
The firearm or firearms shall be dropped in such a way as to cause them to strike the rubber mat surface in each of the following attitudes:
3 a) Barrel vertical, muzzle down.
b) Barrel vertical, muzzle up.
c) Barrel horizontal, bottom up.
d) Barrel horizontal, bottom down.
e) Barrel horizontal, left side up.
f) Barrel horizontal, right side up.
https://saami.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/01/Z299-5_ANSI_AbusiveMishandling.pdf
The Military test consisted of :
4.10 Rough Handling Test.
1.5 Meter (5 Ft) Drop.
Drop the weapons onto a clean, level, concrete surface.
Drop each weapon one time in each of the following orientations:
1 Major axis horizontal (normal firing orientation).
2 Major axis vertical, butt down.
3 Major axis vertical, muzzle down.
4 Major axis 45o from vertical, butt down.
5 Major axis 45o from vertical, muzzle down.
http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a481861.pdf
Bottom Line....there is a lot of unsurprisingly uninformed opinions floating about the internet.
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sigarms228
New member
I don't own a P320 but if I did I would certainly send it in to have the modifications done. IMO it is just not worth the risk to not do such with the potential consequences involved including personal liability.
Cheapshooter
New member
Exactly. It is a voluntary upgrade. Better stated as a "free" upgrade to how the next generation guns come from the factory.How many times does it have to be repeated it is NOT a recall.
I agree, if it passed the same tests as all the other handguns sold in the USA then I don’t see what the problem is. Further more the argument that it’s a responsibility to get the gun fixed? It’s not broken. Fact is if you hit any gun with a hammer and round in the chamber there’s a high probability that it will fire. Same with dropping it with a round in the chamber.
Except that's not true. When a number of other pistols were subjected to the same tests they passed without issue https://www.omahaoutdoors.com/blog/sig-sauer-p320-drop-test-follow-video/. The takeaway a number of us on this forum had was that the standard tests are frankly deficient.
There's no reason to not do the upgrade. It's free and in my experience doesn't adversely affect the trigger. Turnaround for me was just over a week.
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There's no reason to not do the upgrade. It's free and in my experience doesn't adversely affect the trigger. Turnaround for me was just over a week.
Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk
Without weighing in on either side of this discussion, this statement also does not create a fair perception.Does not create a fair perception.
The SIG 320 passed the same standards every pistol sold in the United States must meet.
Standards aside, a number of other similar pistols have been tested in the same manner that caused the unmodified P320s to discharge and yet did not fire. More specifically, it can be seen that a number of these pistols were specifically designed to prevent firing in just the circumstances which the unmodified P320s fired unintentionally.
This isn't really relevant to the discussion at hand. From the beginning it was known that the P320 variants submitted for military testing did not fail the same type of drop test that causes unmodified/un-upgraded/un-recalled commercial P320 pistols to fire.The Military test consisted of :
Quote:
4.10 Rough Handling Test.
1.5 Meter (5 Ft) Drop.
Quote:
Drop the weapons onto a clean, level, concrete surface.
This isn't really relevant to the discussion at hand. From the beginning it was known that the P320 variants submitted for military testing did not fail the same type of drop test that causes unmodified/un-upgraded/un-recalled commercial P320 pistols to fire.
From what I remember reading, the military P320s did in fact fail. That's where the parts for the fix came from in the first place. At the time of the P320 drop issue drama the change request for those parts had already been accepted and the military pistols no longer had those issues. But I specifically remember an article describing how the military did encounter that issue.
None of this changes the fact that a P320 prior to the fix fails a test that, to my knowledge, all similar such pistols pass. The test that it fails is not, IMO, outlandish. As I stated above, to me it shows that what we take as a given because of "industry standard" testing isn't necessarily true. This would hardly be the first time in an industry such an issue has been encountered. I don't necessarily blame SIG for all this, though I would still like to know the time frame between when the change request for the military pistols was made and when the drop issue became popular in civilian circles. I question whether SIG would have ever issued the "Voluntary Upgrade" had those articles never been published, or maybe they would simply have made rolling changes.
All of this could have been avoided by a stupid little inertial dingus on the trigger like most other manufacturers have no problem using and was even listed as an option in SIGs initial PR material when the P320 was released.
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As for all the other popular guns they were all subjected to ludicrous and hilarious amounts of abuse after the 320 incidents and none went off. People were launching Glocks and Walthers and HKs etc. like it was a Japanese game show.
Again I am not saying a 320 is a hair trigger bomb waiting to go off but it COULD and there is a free, painless upgrade to mitigate the issue that even tends to give a slightly better trigger. It makes no sense not to err on the side of caution.
Again I am not saying a 320 is a hair trigger bomb waiting to go off but it COULD and there is a free, painless upgrade to mitigate the issue that even tends to give a slightly better trigger. It makes no sense not to err on the side of caution.
Thanks for the background information. I remember that when the issues with the commercial pistols surfaced, they were accompanied by the information that the military pistols did not have the problem. I was not aware that they didn't have the problem because the problem had already surfaced and been remedied.From what I remember reading, the military P320s did in fact fail. That's where the parts for the fix came from in the first place. At the time of the P320 drop issue drama the change request for those parts had already been accepted and the military pistols no longer had those issues.
Here's an article confirming your comments.
http://www.cnn.com/interactive/2018/06/investigates/sig-sauer-p320-drop-fire/
"When gun manufacturer Sig Sauer was about to land a massive deal in 2016 to supply the US Army with a new pistol, the military made a disturbing discovery during testing. If dropped at a certain angle, the gun would go off by itself. The company won the deal last year anyway, then fixed the guns before shipping them.
The Army’s apparent endorsement helped make a nearly identical Sig Sauer pistol, the P320, a popular choice for police departments and the general public. But for several months, the company sold its commercial version of the gun without the fix it had made for the military, a CNN investigation has found."
The articles I read were probably quoting from SIG's notice.The Army’s apparent endorsement helped make a nearly identical Sig Sauer pistol, the P320, a popular choice for police departments and the general public. But for several months, the company sold its commercial version of the gun without the fix it had made for the military, a CNN investigation has found."
https://www.sigsauer.com/press-releases/sig-sauer-issues-voluntary-upgrade-p320-pistol/
It doesn't go into to detail, merely stating that: "The M17 variant of the P320, selected by the U.S. government as the U.S. Army’s Modular Handgun System (MHS), is not affected by the Voluntary Upgrade."
. None of this changes the fact that a P320 prior to the fix fails a test that, to my knowledge, all similar such pistols pass. The test that it fails is not, IMO, outlandis
No.
Only those pistols tested by DOD where subject to the higher military standards.
The internet went wild with multiple unsubstantiated rumor and unscientific tests.
I posted the standards all pistols must pass. 4 foot drop onto a rubber matt at right angles is what every manufacturer must meet for drop safety. There is no other requirement to pass.
From what I remember reading, the military P320s did in fact fail.
No. If they failed the test when DoD performed it, the pistol would have failed the competition. I posted the entire DOD trail results last time this subject came up.
SIG discovered the potential for failure during preliminary testing for the higher DoD requirement and corrected it.
People were launching Glocks and Walthers and HKs etc. like it was a Japanese game show.
Yes, it got ridiculous. In between eating tide pods people where launching pistols. Nothing to do with how safe or unsafe your pistol actually is going to be when dropped.
Got a friend of mine who missing half is calf because he slipped crossing a creek, fell on his pistol and it went off. Proven design that is been in common use for over 50 years with millions in use.
Yes. The pistol was in an authorized safe carry configuration.
No.
Only those pistols tested by DOD where subject to the higher military standards.
The internet went wild with multiple unsubstantiated rumor and unscientific tests.
I posted the standards all pistols must pass. 4 foot drop onto a rubber matt at right angles is what every manufacturer must meet for drop safety. There is no other requirement to pass.
Actually, yes.
I never stated that the civilian industry standard tests included the test that the P320 failed (in fact I explicitly talk about how I think the industry standard tests should include more). What I stated was that when other pistols were subjected to those tests during the time of all this none of those other pistols failed in the same way as the P320. I'm not talking about the M17 trials in the above quote. I'm talking about the test done by Omaha Outdoors, which is why I included the link. That none of the other pistols encountered that issue is a fact. That you want to call those tests unscientific is up to you.
davidsog said:SIG discovered the potential for failure during preliminary testing for the higher DoD requirement and corrected it.
My point was merely that the issue did come up in the process of the M17 trials. if your argument was it was the very beginning of the trials or at a stage where they hadn't entered the official competition, fair enough.
davidsog said:Nothing to do with how safe or unsafe your pistol actually is going to be when dropped.
I disagree. Do I think this drop situation is particularly likely? I'm not sure. It's a situation I would personally want a pistol to pass, and from what I saw the others did. If there is a safety test that your competition passes and you don't, seems like something that wouldn't be bad to work on. There are safety tests done for cars by certain independent agencies that aren't necessarily government requirements. Car makers still try to do well on them to look good to consumers. The P320 is a pistol that is noted for its safety, in SIG's own marketing, in terms of not needing the trigger pressed to disassemble, needing the magazine removed to disassemble, etc. And I think those are all good things despite not being "industry standards". This doesn't seem more extreme to me.
The good news is that the fix for this is free from SIG, doesn't take much time, and in my experience doesn't adversely affect the shooting experience. The question here is whether or not to take advantage of that, and I don't see why you wouldn't.
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I've noticed that the P320 is not on California's roster of approved handguns. California's drop test requires the firearm to be dropped onto a concrete slab from just over a meter in height, muzzle down. Now, there may be other reasons the 320 is not on the list --- maybe it didn't meet the reliability standard or something else. The point is, though, that there are states that require a pistol be dropped onto concrete and not on a rubber mat.
I have handguns that probably wouldn't pass a drop test, especially some of my older guns. I would feel better, though, with a carry gun that passes all drop tests. It would certainly be a factor for some people when picking a carry gun.
I have handguns that probably wouldn't pass a drop test, especially some of my older guns. I would feel better, though, with a carry gun that passes all drop tests. It would certainly be a factor for some people when picking a carry gun.
Omaha Outdoors
Uncontrolled and unknown conditions....
While you may not recognize that as important, as someone with a hard sciences degree, I certainly do.
In the context of my education, SIG's warning makes perfect sense and yes......it invalidates the Bubba testing found on the internet.
Be aware that ad hoc testing is occurring and individuals are testing guns in conditions outside accepted testing protocols. ALL STANDARDIZED DROP TESTING IS DONE IN CONTROLLED ENVIRONMENTS WITHOUT USING LIVE AMMUNITION.
https://www.sigsauer.com/support/p320-voluntary-upgrade/#FAQ
And as Omaha Outdoors testing was announced at the same time SIG introduced the voluntary upgrades and a full four months before engineers addressed the higher than normal drop safety requirements. There is no way anything Omaha Outdoors did had any effect on the decision to meet the higher drop standards than the industry requires.
In April of 2017, DoD directed SIG to modify the pistol to increase its drop safety despite passing all trials. SIG did this and those modifications resulted in the voluntary upgrade program. Again, SIG engineers where addressing the higher than required drop safety standards long before Bubba started launching pistols.
https://www.omahaoutdoors.com/blog/pentagon-weapons-testing-office-report-sig-mhs-xm17/
What I stated was that when other pistols were subjected to those tests during the time of all this none of those other pistols failed in the same way as the P320.
California's drop test requires the firearm to be dropped onto a concrete slab from just over a meter in height, muzzle down.
The original P320 design passed with flying colors California DOT drop testing.
I would feel better, though, with a carry gun that passes all drop tests.
You are not going to get that until the standards are raised.
Andrew Tuohy, who introduced the Omaha Outdoors video, said his results proved why adherence to checklist style tests may not serve the industry’s best interests. “I do believe the P320 will pass the full SAAMI/ANSI test, but this simply indicates the inadequacy of that test,” he told Guns.com in an email.
“As for the various drop test standards, the pistol simply isn’t susceptible to drop fires when dropped at those perfect (0/90 degree) angles because they either don’t induce trigger movement or the slide comes out of battery too far to fire immediately upon impact,” Tuohy said. “This is the problem with mindlessly following a standard protocol without understanding why the protocol exists.”
It’s unclear if the industry has plans to expand the drop safety test to include more requirements. The trade association for the gun industry, the National Shooting Sports Foundation, which both Sig and Guns.com are members, declined to comment, saying SAAMI would be a better source.
https://www.guns.com/2017/08/14/drop-standards-sig-saur-p320/
All SIG pistols, including the P320 are tested to the following industry and government standards: ANSI/SAAMI, NIJ, FBI/DOJ, TOP, Massachusetts, and California DOJ as well as various others. They are very specific tests, most of which are conducted by outside labs. The P320 has passed all of those tests. Unfortunately, they don’t test the pistol’s performance when dropped at a -30deg unto concrete. They could drop test a pistol in every conceivable combination of angles on three axes, but that’s 46,000,000 different ways. Consequently, manufacturers build to a standard.
Since it’s introduction in 2014, they’ve sold around 500,000 P320s. There are three recorded cases of unintended discharges in LE channels . There is one additional commercial incident which I am familiar with but was not formally reported to SIG. That’s four known incidents from 500,000 weapons, many of which are used on a daily basis. Additionally, those incidents have all been within the last year.
despite building their pistols to industry standards, SIG has acknowledged the issue and is taking steps to fix it. They didn’t waste any time. They’ve stopped commercial production of the P320 and are concentrating on the upgrade.
http://soldiersystems.net/2017/08/0...-unaffected-announces-voluntary-p320-upgrade/
So, does that mean Sig just hasn't resubmitted the upgraded model to California for testing or that there was another issue that has kept if off the approved roster?The original P320 design passed with flying colors California DOT drop testing.
To clarify the intent of my statement --- I own and carry guns that don't meet the California drop test or have not been submitted for review. Nevertheless, a safer gun is a good thing, especially if it doesn't compromise the functionality or looks of the gun or appreciably increases costs.You are not going to get that until the standards are raised.I would feel better, though, with a carry gun that passes all drop tests.