Point is original guns are not 100% drop safe and that is a potential issue to you and those around you no matter how small the chance.
With the firearm in the "Safe Carrying" condition, the firearm shall be capable of passing the below test criteria for drop testing from a height of four (4) feet (1.22 m) onto a 85±5 Durometer (Shore A) rubber mat, one (1) inch thick (2.54 cm), backed by concrete.
The firearm or firearms shall be dropped in such a way as to cause them to strike the rubber mat surface in each of the following attitudes:
3 a) Barrel vertical, muzzle down.
b) Barrel vertical, muzzle up.
c) Barrel horizontal, bottom up.
d) Barrel horizontal, bottom down.
e) Barrel horizontal, left side up.
f) Barrel horizontal, right side up.
4.10 Rough Handling Test.
1.5 Meter (5 Ft) Drop.
Drop the weapons onto a clean, level, concrete surface.
Drop each weapon one time in each of the following orientations:
1 Major axis horizontal (normal firing orientation).
2 Major axis vertical, butt down.
3 Major axis vertical, muzzle down.
4 Major axis 45o from vertical, butt down.
5 Major axis 45o from vertical, muzzle down.
Exactly. It is a voluntary upgrade. Better stated as a "free" upgrade to how the next generation guns come from the factory.How many times does it have to be repeated it is NOT a recall.
Without weighing in on either side of this discussion, this statement also does not create a fair perception.Does not create a fair perception.
The SIG 320 passed the same standards every pistol sold in the United States must meet.
This isn't really relevant to the discussion at hand. From the beginning it was known that the P320 variants submitted for military testing did not fail the same type of drop test that causes unmodified/un-upgraded/un-recalled commercial P320 pistols to fire.The Military test consisted of :
Quote:
4.10 Rough Handling Test.
1.5 Meter (5 Ft) Drop.
Quote:
Drop the weapons onto a clean, level, concrete surface.
This isn't really relevant to the discussion at hand. From the beginning it was known that the P320 variants submitted for military testing did not fail the same type of drop test that causes unmodified/un-upgraded/un-recalled commercial P320 pistols to fire.
Thanks for the background information. I remember that when the issues with the commercial pistols surfaced, they were accompanied by the information that the military pistols did not have the problem. I was not aware that they didn't have the problem because the problem had already surfaced and been remedied.From what I remember reading, the military P320s did in fact fail. That's where the parts for the fix came from in the first place. At the time of the P320 drop issue drama the change request for those parts had already been accepted and the military pistols no longer had those issues.
. None of this changes the fact that a P320 prior to the fix fails a test that, to my knowledge, all similar such pistols pass. The test that it fails is not, IMO, outlandis
From what I remember reading, the military P320s did in fact fail.
People were launching Glocks and Walthers and HKs etc. like it was a Japanese game show.
No.
Only those pistols tested by DOD where subject to the higher military standards.
The internet went wild with multiple unsubstantiated rumor and unscientific tests.
I posted the standards all pistols must pass. 4 foot drop onto a rubber matt at right angles is what every manufacturer must meet for drop safety. There is no other requirement to pass.
davidsog said:SIG discovered the potential for failure during preliminary testing for the higher DoD requirement and corrected it.
davidsog said:Nothing to do with how safe or unsafe your pistol actually is going to be when dropped.
Omaha Outdoors
Be aware that ad hoc testing is occurring and individuals are testing guns in conditions outside accepted testing protocols. ALL STANDARDIZED DROP TESTING IS DONE IN CONTROLLED ENVIRONMENTS WITHOUT USING LIVE AMMUNITION.
What I stated was that when other pistols were subjected to those tests during the time of all this none of those other pistols failed in the same way as the P320.
California's drop test requires the firearm to be dropped onto a concrete slab from just over a meter in height, muzzle down.
I would feel better, though, with a carry gun that passes all drop tests.
Andrew Tuohy, who introduced the Omaha Outdoors video, said his results proved why adherence to checklist style tests may not serve the industry’s best interests. “I do believe the P320 will pass the full SAAMI/ANSI test, but this simply indicates the inadequacy of that test,” he told Guns.com in an email.
“As for the various drop test standards, the pistol simply isn’t susceptible to drop fires when dropped at those perfect (0/90 degree) angles because they either don’t induce trigger movement or the slide comes out of battery too far to fire immediately upon impact,” Tuohy said. “This is the problem with mindlessly following a standard protocol without understanding why the protocol exists.”
It’s unclear if the industry has plans to expand the drop safety test to include more requirements. The trade association for the gun industry, the National Shooting Sports Foundation, which both Sig and Guns.com are members, declined to comment, saying SAAMI would be a better source.
All SIG pistols, including the P320 are tested to the following industry and government standards: ANSI/SAAMI, NIJ, FBI/DOJ, TOP, Massachusetts, and California DOJ as well as various others. They are very specific tests, most of which are conducted by outside labs. The P320 has passed all of those tests. Unfortunately, they don’t test the pistol’s performance when dropped at a -30deg unto concrete. They could drop test a pistol in every conceivable combination of angles on three axes, but that’s 46,000,000 different ways. Consequently, manufacturers build to a standard.
Since it’s introduction in 2014, they’ve sold around 500,000 P320s. There are three recorded cases of unintended discharges in LE channels . There is one additional commercial incident which I am familiar with but was not formally reported to SIG. That’s four known incidents from 500,000 weapons, many of which are used on a daily basis. Additionally, those incidents have all been within the last year.
despite building their pistols to industry standards, SIG has acknowledged the issue and is taking steps to fix it. They didn’t waste any time. They’ve stopped commercial production of the P320 and are concentrating on the upgrade.
So, does that mean Sig just hasn't resubmitted the upgraded model to California for testing or that there was another issue that has kept if off the approved roster?The original P320 design passed with flying colors California DOT drop testing.
To clarify the intent of my statement --- I own and carry guns that don't meet the California drop test or have not been submitted for review. Nevertheless, a safer gun is a good thing, especially if it doesn't compromise the functionality or looks of the gun or appreciably increases costs.You are not going to get that until the standards are raised.I would feel better, though, with a carry gun that passes all drop tests.