Shoulder bulge???

S

souther33

New member
I just recently bought a 308 Ruger american rifle due to a good deal in some 147gr FMJ bullets and brass. the cases were mixed brass mostly LC. anyway I also picked up a new hornady 308 die a lyman case gauge and lee factory crimp die. I deprimed all cases first then resized without the decaping pin with a light cam-over. after I trimmed all brass to 2.005(+-.002) and allowed all brass that was 1.990 and longer to stay in the good brass. I then debured, swaged, primed, and charged all cases

Now to where I think the problem occurred I then started to seat all bullets to the top of the cannelure were it is ever so slightly visible on the longest case I could fine. then factory crimped them. I check the case gauge and it was a go. I then loaded 500 cases checking case gauge periodically. my rifle I ordered came in 2 days later and was off to shoot test load to get the velocity and noticed that my bolt was hard to close. thought it was just a tight chamber. I then tried to load a few more and some rounds would not let me lock my bolt all the way.

WHAT IS WRONG.... I can only think of a few thanks that could have happened
1. I set a taper crimp when I was seating bullets with the hornady seater and bulge the shoulder on the longer cases. BUT it still fits in the cases gauge!!!!!
2. the new rifle has a tight chamber???

what should I do? so far my plan is to take the rifle to a pawn shop and see if a factory round closes with and force on it and take one of my "bad" rounds and try it in one of there rifles.
how can I fix the ammo if it is the shoulder??? could I just take the decapping unit out in my sizing die and resize?
also could my cases gauge be bad?

any response is appreciated thank you.
 
I can tell you what I suspect.This problem comes up regularly.
When you seated yout bullets,did you screw your seater die in till it touched the shellholder?
If so,that likely caused your problem.
A typical bullet seating die has a crimp function built in.Without using your crimp die,you already crimped with the seater die.
And you did not lightly crimp,you inadvertently put the full crunch on.
That created enough load to collapse the shoulder.The case bulges outward as the shoulder collapses.
Its a bad idea to try to shoot them that way.

I'm thinking your bushing gage is designed to only check that cartridge headspace and neck length are between high and low limit.
To do that,they need clearance to drop in on the dia.In other words,the gage is most likely fine.

I do not have happy good news about a fix.If you decide to pull the spindle out of your sizing die to resize them,I just can't tell you if it will work.
I'm not suggesting its a good idea,(you are on your own)
If you forget to lube the cases,the first one will get stuck in the die.A primed,charged cartridge stuck in a sizing die is a dangerous situation to get unstuck.Obviously drilling the primer out would not be an option.

The other problem,a sizing die takes the neck down undersize,then the expander ball sizes it back up.You aren't going to size the neck at all with a bullet in it.
You will have to back the die out the full length of the neck.The die cannot touch the neck.
So,will the die body size the shoulder dia enough to chamber them?Maybe.
If it does,you still have a problem.
Collapsing the shoulder alters the cartridge headspace.
You may squeeze some of the shoulder collapse out of it with partial sizing,but,how much?I don't know.It won't be controlled by the die.

500 is a lot.
 
Last edited:
Like HiBC has already said, I'm afraid the OP needs to pull all cartridges which resist closing the bolt to any degree.

Two Purchases:
- Get an impact Hammer (cheapest) or a actual Puller + Collet (fastest)
- Get a conventional Die Set (for $30, might as well just get it all)

Four actions:
* Pull the bullets/save the powder
* Pull out the little deprimer pin (to save wasting primers) but keep the expander ball (to ensure proper neck sizing and Full Length resize all the cases.
* Recharge all the cases with the saved powder
* And when seating the bullets again, back off the seating die from the press one full turn (so as not to crimp at all), and re-seat the bullets.

Your bolt action 308 needs no crimp.
 
HiBC has nailed it. The seating die does not have shoulder support within the die and if excessive seating force is used, which seems to be the case resulting in a crimp, the case will collapse causing the shoulder bulge and preventing the round from chambering properly, if at all. What to do about it is a hard question. Those, if any, that will chamber I would fire and the cases will iron out. As HiBC pointed out, some have said they have removed the decapping stem from the die, lubed the cases well, and resized the loaded rounds enough to remove or minimize the bulge to where the rounds may chamber. But that could be iffy, maybe dangerous, and you would be on your own. The remaining alternative is of course to get a .30 caliber collet type bullet puller or an inertia type and start doing the dreaded job of pulling several hundred bullets.
 
We were just talking about a similar problem on another thread. I had rolled the shoulders on some cases, and had loaded rounds that would not chamber. Don't take the ammo apart. Get a Redding Body Die and resize the loaded round. The die won't touch the case neck and has no depriming ability. Use the die in small increments of resizing, until the round will chamber. A total full length resize, for me, wasn't needed.

Before some knowledgable guy slapped me upside the head and reminded me I could just use that body die and not pull down all that ammo (100's of rounds), I had already pulled about 100 or so bullets. The good news is that the pulled bullets, even a bit marked up by the RCBS Collet puller, shoot quite well now that I've reloaded them for plinking rounds for the grandkids.

All that said, some folks may feel a bit queasy about resizing in any way a loaded round. Till I did a few, I was a small bit unsure, but all went well, so I did them all and have since used the type die on other calibers.
 
Another option is that the OAL is too long and the bullet is being stopped up by the lands. Smoke a few bullets and try chambering them again. Then check for land marks on the bullet.
 
1. I set a taper crimp when I was seating bullets with the hornady seater and bulge the shoulder on the longer cases. BUT it still fits in the cases gauge!!!!
Click to expand...

There's the problem. The case gauge is prolly up at max. dimensions and your rifle's chamber is smaller, maybe mid-way in the tolerances or even tighter...

I have a Ruger American in .308 and I love it. I have been reloading with 150gr. JSN, 155 gr. A-Max an 168 gr. HPBT bullets and don't crimp any. I'd suggest you back off the seating/crimp die so no crimp is applied. Although the Lee Collet Crimp is a good die, don't use it. No crimp needed for your rifle. Full length size, charge, seat bullets to book OAL (I believe it's 2.800"), disregarding the cannalure. No crimp and try these.

Good lesson to be learned; don't reload 500 untested rounds...:o
 
Souther33,

Is the Hornady die one of their bushing dies? If so, if you just leave the bushing and decaper out, it will perform the same as a body die.

The warning about sizing loaded ammo in a body die or in a bushingless bushing die needs to be made. The die constitutes a very short barrel gun. You won't likely get a lot of velocity if a round goes off in one, but you don't want someone lounging in a chair right over it, just the same. Wear eye and hearing protection, also just in case.

The Collet Die also works very nicely with a Redding Body Die or a bushingless Full-length sizing Bushing Die. The Collet Die sizes the neck and the other die handles the body and shoulder setback. It makes resizing a two-step process, but you get very straight necks that way.
 
Additional information and responses

thank you everyone who has responed

I do thank it is bulge shoulder because of the hornady crimp. am very glad to know that there is a die that I could use to fix the problem. Instead of having to pull all the bullets. as far as my OAL it's within proper length and is not touching the lanes of the rifle so I can eliminate that.
I do not believe that my die is the bushing die. I thank they're the new dimension once if that sounds right. don't have them on hand right now or would check. I thank HiBC is right that I cannot pull the decapping unit out because of neck being taken down. also I factory crimp all the rounds because I plan on picking up an AR10 and my brother has one that I plan on using.
needless to say this makes me think of a few more questions.

why is there a body die besides beside resizing the neck and body separately to get straight necks?

why did my case gauge let the round fit? I guess I can't understand why still my case gauge worked. is a case gauge not just a chamber with tighter specs? and why would lyman make a case gauge that was not of tight tolerance?
 
It's no fun when you load a bunch of ammo and it's out of spec. I did something similar with 30-06 ammo some time ago. Loaded over 400 rounds, but set the shoulder back enough to cause light strikes on the primers on about half the loaded ammo. I had carefully followed the RCBS instructions for setting up the sizing die in the press. In this case, I had no choice but to pull the bullets and save the powder and bullets. 400 cases went into the recycle bin. I now have a case gauge that, had I used one originally, I might have prevented the problem.

I'd not try to resize the loaded ammo.That just gives me the willies...with a collet puller, it's only about 2 hour's work to pull the bullets on 500 rounds.
 
I could never understand why people reload (Other than F/L resizeing) large amounts of ammunition for guns they have not tried the assembled cartridge in. One of the basic concepts of reloading is "Build ammunition to match your rifle". For many years I was dead set against reloading. As I remember it, reloading got it's big start promoted as cheap ammo. It actually was pushed as a way to only own one rifle and change the rifles abilities through reloading as the hunting seasons changed. Anyway, working with guns, I soon got the impression that reloading has caused more problems than it ever cured. Apparently that aspect of reloading has not changed. There is a reference to swageing the brass in the original post. I don't even know what that refers to in the reloading process. I got some bad Hornady brass once and the die swaged the head down (Head was oversize) but got stuck on most of the cases. Hornady took them back. Anybody?
 
Last edited:
Shoulder bulge?

In my 40yrs at the bench....I've followed the first lesson I learned (aside from the very basics of depriming, case cleaning, etc.) from Col. L. Entrekin of the USAMTU in '75.

Using VIRGIN brass.... I expand the necks [w/.30 cal. brass use .318 expander]....Then size the neck back down In GRADUAL INCREMENTS, until it [the case] chambers w/slight friction upon bolt closing....The case is then sized to [that] particular chamber and NO headspace issues are present, and neck-sizing only is required until some resistance is felt upon bolt-closing on subsequent(ly) sized cases.

When subsequent neck-sizing results in more friction upon bolt closing....Then...and ONLY THEN....set the shoulder back in .001-.002" increments until the case chambers and seats (as in the original sizing) when the bolt closes/locks.

Over the years, I've done this with all my different calibers with either the next-larger expander, or with one which I ground down/polished to give sufficient initial expansion to create a small [donut] upon resizing, at the neck/shoulder juncture, which aids in accurately positioning the case in the chamber neck which then helps to ensure better accuracy by centering the case/bullet in the chamber.

This method has worked for me for years in all my rifles, though each one has its own dedicated sizing die and brass. Extreme measures? Perhaps... But to me, it eliminates the hassle of repeated setup for the different rifles; Set up for one particular rifle....install the appropriate die...and go to work.

When sizing surplus brass, I use '-06 class dies for (LC brass) and .222 Rem. Mag dies (for .223 Rem.) to size the body first and then follow with the .308 or .223 die to size the neck/shoulder to the appropriate rifle/chamber.

For me, this procedure has resulted in extended case life/added loadings, and less headaches at the bench. For lube, I now use Bag Balm exclusively. It's the slickest sizing lube bar none....In my opinion, and I have tried just about all at one time or another. I have brass which corroded from water-based lube after being stored for 3 years (prior to using BB) and no such problem with BB after 19 yrs.

Everyone has his/her own set way of doing things, and I have no quarrel with that whatsoever....To Each Their Own..... Just offering my $.02, and experience with some facet of loading.

WILL
 
I check the case gauge and it was a go. I then loaded 500 cases checking case gauge periodically. my rifle I ordered came in 2 days later
Click to expand...

The case gage is not a chamber gage. The case gage will allow a reloader to check a fired case and a case that has been returned to minimum length, also referred to as full length sized.

Then there is the crimp, before the Internet a reloading manual suggested the crimp could do more harm than good. Dillon suggested applying the crimp at the same time the bullet is seated is a bad habit. Then there is the undisciplined, if a reloader is going to crimp they should trim the length of the cases to the same length.

Seating the bullet and crimping at the same time can bulge the case at the case body/shoulder juncture. I am the fan of bullet hold, I want all the bullet hold I can get. Back to the old days before the Internet, the crimp can reduce bullet hold, back to being the fan of bullet hold, I want all the bullet hold I can get.

F. Guffey
 
I do thank it is bulge shoulder because of the hornady crimp. am very glad to know that there is a die that I could use to fix the problem.
Click to expand...

There is never enough time to do it correctly the first time but there is always enough money to fix all the problems the second time around.

Then there is that old saying about practice makes perfect:eek: :confused:

F. Guffey
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top