Should personal protection ammo be subsonic?

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spacecoast

New member
In the event it is necessary to use your weapon indoors, in a car and/or without hearing protection, is subsonic ammo less likely to do permanent hearing damage to yourself or a member of your family? I realize that the gravity of needing to fire inside your home outweighs possible collateral damage, but it would still be pretty awful to miss the BG and permanently impair your wife or kids (or yourself) at the same time, even if the BG was scared off.

For comparison purposes, let's use comparable-energy rounds like a supersonic 9mm 115 gr. JHP at 1250 ft/sec (400 ft. lbs) vs. a subsonic 230 gr. .45 JHP at 1050 fps (450 ft lbs), or even a .38 special 158 gr. LHP +P at 900 fps (280 ft. lbs). Logic would seem to dictate that the pressure wave from the .45 and especially the .38 would be less damaging to hearing than the 9mm, right?

For those of you who have heard these without protection (or similar), which is louder or more painful? Does the sound "quality" differ (boom vs. crack)?
 
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The sonic "boom" is a minor part of the over-all "BOOM!" Sub-sonic or super-sonic makes no real world volume difference.

45 vs 380 vs 9mm may make a "real" difference, but it'll be the difference between being deaf on one hand or not being able to hear on the other.;)
 
45 vs 380 vs 9mm may make a "real" difference
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Maybe, but it seems that my LCP makes just as much or more noise with 95 gr. bullets at 900 fps as my K-frame does with 158 gr. bullets at about the same velocity.
 
Maybe, but
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Indeed. I should say "all else being equal".


Either way though, I think it's the difference between being deaf or very deaf.

I remember shooting a 22 pistol with a barrel so short that you almost wondered if it was in front of your fingers. That thing was GOD AWFUL loud and I guarantee those rounds were subsonic. Now, my G33 shooting 125gr XTP at over 1300fps is, GOD AWFUL loud. So, deaf is deaf, pretty much.
 
I think it is a non issue. The supersonic crack from something as small as a handgun projectile is not a significant thing.
 
I carry what I believe to be the best ammo for the job of self/home defense.

If I have to use my weapon to protect my life or the lives of my family - hearing loss is way down on my list of concerns.

Come on, it's really a ridiculous question, IMO. We're talking about a life-threatening situation and we're worried about hearing loss???

Life vs hearing

No contest there!
 
You probably won't be shooting many rounds inside the car and probably won't even notice the noise anyway. I don't think a couple of rounds fired inside a car will do permanent damage to your ears unless the gun is right beside your ear. At which point, something is definitely wrong. :)

For those with kids it seems like some of the can scream louder than a gunshot! :D

Most people will do more damage to their hearing by sticking earbuds down inside the ears and cranking the music up too loud.
 
Shooting one or two rounds (even 6 or so) will not cause you to lose your hearing. :rolleyes:
You might have some hearing loss later in life from it, but it will be minor.
My hearing is going after many years of loud rock & roll music, industrial machinery, and shooting. My hearing has "absorbed" several .22LR, .25 auto, 22 magnum, and .38 SPL rounds indoors. I once shot a 10" barrelled .30 carbine in a car (DON'T do it!). But, I'm far from deaf.
 
Bill DeShivs said:
Shooting one or two rounds (even 6 or so) will not cause you to lose your hearing.
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I think that you're right about that in a general sense, Bill, but there are very many documented cases of loud noises causing instant and permanent hearing loss, not to mention Tinnitus. I have a mild cases of Tinnitus that was caused by a single shotgun blast last year. Ironically, I was wearing hearing protection but the stock moved the muff slightly off my ear and I didn't notice. We were shooting indoors to an outdoor target. My ear felt funny and rang for several days, now it's just that annoying ringing/buzz sound.
 
jhenry said:
I think it is a non issue. The supersonic crack from something as small as a handgun projectile is not a significant thing.
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I would agree. I've never heard of anything like a "sonic boom" (at least one powerful enough to be deemed significant) being produced by something the size of a pistol round.
 
We're talking about shooting another human being to save your own life and you are worrying about your hearing?
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It's not a matter of having to pick one or the other. There are subsonic rounds out there that are accepted to be very effective.

Assuming that subsonic is easier on the ears there's really no reason not to use it if you find a caliber/handgun/loading combination that works for.

That said, there's a reason I emphasized the word "assuming" in the previous sentence. That's because I don't really think that the assumption is warranted.
 
Saving one's life is definitely #1 on the priority list, but hearing damage is nothing to take for granted. I have permanent tinnitus, and hyperacusis (overly sensitive hearing) from years of playing in loud rock bands, shooting, riding dirt bikes, etc. My came from long term exposure. Some people have acquired the same conditions from one short term loud exposure.

Science has come a long way with eye surgery / medicine, but we're still in the dark ages when it comes to the ear. Never ever shoot without protection. Once the damage is done, there is no repairing it.

Josh P
 
I think it is a non issue. The supersonic crack from something as small as a handgun projectile is not a significant thing.

I would agree. I've never heard of anything like a "sonic boom" (at least one powerful enough to be deemed significant) being produced by something the size of a pistol round.
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Why would there be a difference? Supersonic is ~1126fps at sea level and handgun bullets are just as large in diameter and have larger metplats than rifle bullets. A rifle rounds muzzle blast will be louder due to the greater powder charge but that has nothing to do with the sonic boom of the bullet.
The sonic boom from any supersonic bullet will be pretty mild due to their small size.

Jim
 
Either way though, I think it's the difference between being deaf or very deaf.
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Interesting theory, but I was watching First 48 when they were interrogating a suspect who murdered two people in a car with a shotgun. He was in the back seat when he shot the driver. He couldn't stand the girl passenger's screaming, so he shot her, too.

He was hearing the questions being asked by the detectives just fine. And wasn't smart enough not to answer them.

I've heard of lot's of people being inside a car when shots were fired. Don't recall, off hand, anyone being deaf afterwards, though one could easily imagine permanent hearing damage with some loss.
 
The supersonic crack from something as small as a handgun projectile is not a significant thing.
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Having been next to a guy shooting a .357 snub at the range, and feeling the supersonic concussion and minor ear pain even *with* hearing protection, I have to disagree. The pain would have been excruciating without ear muffs. The effect of the concussion is much less if you are *behind* the weapon, but anyone to your side (or out in front of you to any degree I would imagine) is going to be affected. It seems like we are advised with regularity that it's better from a flash/bang standpoint to use 38 +P rather than .357 for home defense.

Come on, it's really a ridiculous question
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As far as it being a ridiculous question, why should anything be a ridiculous question when it comes to defending your family with a firearm? Hopefully it's something you only have to do once, if at all, and I would rather do it as well as I can.
 
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You probably won't be shooting many rounds inside the car and probably won't even notice the noise anyway. I don't think a couple of rounds fired inside a car will do permanent damage to your ears unless the gun is right beside your ear.
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It's not a matter of what you NOTICE, it's a matter of the unheard damage that's done. Any single sharp, LOUD noise, or any sustained LOUD noise, will begin the damage. Check the OSHA limits. Sometimes, if the damage is slight, the ear may recover. Oftentimes, the sound is repeated over and over until the damage is permanent. One or two shots close to the ear may not cause much damage. The operative words there are MAY and MUCH. As a matter of interest, back in the 70s, I was hired as an armed security guard. We shot our 50-round qualifying at an outdoor range. We were not advised to wear earphones and, at that time, I didn't know to. We were standing about 10 feet apart. The shooter to my left was shooting full load .357 mags. from a snubbie. At the end of qualifying, I couldn't hear from my left ear. My hearing returned, but I have permanent moderate damage on that side.

Most people will do more damage to their hearing by sticking earbuds down inside the ears and cranking the music up too loud.
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That's a +1 there. Many rock concerts have been measured at over the OSHA limit and nearing or passing the "pain" threshold on the front row. I have permanent damage from too many rock concerts as a young man. Many a time I've come out of a, for example ZZ Top, concert and not been able to hear the traffic noise around me. Too late to fix it for me, but just a word of caution.

I'm not saying to not worry about hearing loss, especially from loud, sharp sounds such as a sonic wave or gun blast. What I AM saying is sometimes you gotta take the bad with the good. I will repeat, this is saving your life we're talking about.

To the point, has anyone taken a dB meter and actually measured their gun blast?

There are subsonic rounds out there that are accepted to be very effective.
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JohnKSa, you made a bold, broad statement there. Can you back it up with some brands and ballistics? I shoot Corbon DPX (sonic), and would like ballistic performance equal to that round.

I DO agree with your statement that we're all assuming the "sonic" blast is worse on the hearing than a "sub-sonic" shot. If EITHER is over the OSHA limits, then BOTH are damaging.
 
Having been next to a guy shooting a .357 snub at the range, and feeling the supersonic concussion and minor ear pain even *with* hearing protection, I have to disagree.
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Muzzle blast and the supersonic crack are two very different things.

For people wanting to know how loud the supersonic crack is, fire a .22 rifle with ammo that will go supersonic. It's really not that loud in comparison to the report of any centerfire handgun your likely to use for self defense.
 
Spacecoast, we are talking about the 'crack' that occurs due to passing the sound barrier, not the concussive effect of muzzle blast. Not the same critter.
 
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