Shotshell reloads blooper problem

S

sweetshot

New member
Hey all! I'm posting here, as the reloading forum may not catch as many reads as this forum. I've been reloading with a new progressive MEC 650N since last spring, and am having issues with about 3 or 4 shells per box where it feels and sounds like I'm getting a short powder load. There's still enough ooomph to break the bird, (when I don't miss....), but it leaves a ton of residue in the barrel on both my Citori and BT99. My buddy has shot some of them through his 11-87, and it doesn't eject the shell, but has broken the bird when he's had one of these "bloopers" in. If I remember right, it's also only occurred since late fall cooler weather, and winter cold. I've read some threads from the Shotgun News forums, but am not registered there, so I'll bring it up here. They seem to think it's cold, and/or pressure related, but I have done over 50 test drops and have a wide variety of grain readings from the same bushing. Anywhere from 16.4 up to 17.9. All this should be prefaced by the fact that I never had this issue with my 600 MEC single stage with the same bushing, and the 600 seems to have more consistent grain drops when I do the test weighing. I'm in MN, so I do have a lot of static in the powder bottle and hull when loading and testing, and of course have pretty cold temps. I've mostly not used a baffle, but have also used the metal baffle that came with a universal charge bar. That doesn't seem to help. I've heard about others using a plastic baffle. May have to try that. I've also checked wad deformation, and they aren't being compressed to the point of deforming.


Anyway, here's my main recipe that it's been occurring on:

AA hulls (mixture of both low and high reload count per hull)
17.5 grains of Red dot
Waa12 1 ounce wads (or Down Range equivalent)
Winchester 209 Primers
#8 Magnum shot
No Chrono, so assume the recipe is right at about 1150 to 1200 fps

My question is: could it be cold, or too low pressure build up, (crimps look as good as new), or intermittent short powder drop, or a combination of these?

Any thoughts would be appreciated.
 
You should not be getting that much discrepancy. The red PC powder baffle will help reduce that as will making sure the powder has settled before starting. You can reduce the static bby adding humidity in your reloading room or even by using a dryer sheet on the inside ( if you can get it inside the bottle).
 
Red dot is a pretty fast powder which means you should not have a temp problem with it. What OO said on the baffle and dryer sheet is a good suggestion. Probably should open loader up and double check for anykind of blockage with that kind of descrepancy on powder charge just to be sure.
 
I agree with other responses....you're getting way too much variation / and you have to reduce that static ...

Increase humidity in the space / put dryer sheets in bulk powder container. Wipe down the powder cannister inside and out ...with the anti static dryer sheets...until you get this static problem licked 100%.

Outside temps do affect the performance of the powder ...but I think your issues are static related ...causing all this variation in your powder drop. I'd also suggest getting a lb of Hodgon Clays ...and trying it instead after you get the static problem licked.

Even in these powder quantities ...a variation of more than 0.2gr of powder would concern me ...in terms of what is causing it. Make sure all your press setup issues are corrected ...is the charge bar moving fully accross and under the bottles ...is the powder bushing really flush ( or polish the edge of the bushing a little - so its flush). I'd try it with and without a powder baffle ...but I've had mixed results with both the plastic and metal ones...so I'm not a big fan of the baffles. Is the press solidly bolted down ...

Old hulls ...new hulls ...unless you have some HS hulls mixed in there is probably not the problem.../ but I'd probably say eliminate it - by going to hulls that are of similar age.

I would probably go to one wad only ...until you get this solved ...just to make sure that the powder you put in, is not migrating past the base of the wad for some reason.

I'd probably suggest you keep your shells in a room-temp environment ...before you head out to the club ....vs in a sub-zero garage, or something for 2 weeks - before you head out to the club. Every powder out there ...reacts a little differently to cold temps ..and how it ignites...

But the root cause ...is you have to get your powder drops down to 0.2gr at the most ...or you'll probably continue to have issues.
 
BigJim may have nailed it. My variations with Promo, which is very similar to Red Dot, have been about as great as yours. the gus told me to try wiping the bottle with a dryer sheet. Today I am loading some Promo after wiping the poweder bottle out with a cheapo dryer sheet and my drops are running between 17.0 and 17.4 grains with most being 17.2 or 17.3. This is on a very windy dry day and using a MEC Sizemaster and Gun Clubs with Win 209 pimers and the WAA12 hull.

I see you are using AA hulls. Is that the same as a AACH? I hear that they are fine with a single stage MEC but can be a problem with a progressive due to the kind of base.
 
I have used Clays and Clay Dot, and am now using Red Dot.
No issues, event with our recent cold weather.

If it was the cold temps, the ALL of your loads would be problematic , but since it is only a few, it must bête powder drops and possibly the crimp
 
cold weather in central Florida....holy cow...your little umbrella in your pool side drink might freeze....??? Come On Man ....!!

He's in Minnesota ...where a light cool brezze ....will be cold enough to freeze the hair on your butt this time of the year ....( and not out by your pool / inside your snowmobile suit ) ....!!

( but I don't really think its weather related either....except when it gets cold up there...the relative humidity is often really low ...leading to a lot of static...) ....just had to pick on you buddy ...
 
HEY, HEY, HEY - one of the snowbirds from either Michigan or Minnesota forgot to shut the door when they left and we had a few days below freezing- enough to kill off some of my outdoor plants. We were actually colder where I live than where my SIL lives north of Reno - and they had snow!

BOT - cold weather would have that effect on all the shells, so my guess is still inconsistent powder drops.

Hopefully you are weighing one every box or so so you can determine if the charges are consistent
 
Ok, I'm sorry ....at least a little bit ....

But back to the point of the thread.....before I loaded anymore shells, if I had this issue....I'd take all the suggestions for getting rid of static ...then I'd cycle at least 10 drops thru the press ...for powder...dump them back into the powder bottle....and measure each of the next 20 drops...until I had no more variation than ideally 0.1 gr / but I'd probably settle for 0.2gr ....

or I'd go back ....and do all the setup checks on my press....looking for something that's loose....take the powder bottle off the press (with powder in it ) ....and shake the powder ...and make sure there are no grains of powder sticking to the sides of the bottle ( if there is, you still have static ) ...

and keep this up / until I got to that 0.1gr goal of variation...
 
So far, y'alls have overlook one of the subtile flaws in the MEC design. If you're not paying attention, you may not notice if the charge bar doesn't fully cycle. When the bar doesn't fully return, then it may not pick up a full charge of powder. As you're pushing the lever down on a MEC, the experienced loader can usually feel any irregularities (something binding) and correct the problem. But, the charge bar return is done by a spring and you won't feel any difference if it doesn't fully return.

If the bar is hanging up, it usually means you need to reduce the friction on the mechanism -- a good cleaning, the correct washers/baffles, and don't over tighten the bottles. My buddy and I experienced the problem mostly with our .410-bore loaders. (We both use a fine granular powder that has a tendency to clog up the works.) He has a factory bar and I have an adjustable unit, and full return failures occurred with both loaders.

Some of the problem is the location of the factory return spring. It's not co-axial with the bar and causes an eccentric force. If you have a look at a bar that's been in service for a while, you'll see that the wear marks aren't symmetrical -- the bar is continually pulled to the back side of the loader. To smooth out the action of the charge bar, you can add a second return spring on the front side. I used a second MEC anchor on the bar and made a wire loop retainer that fits around the shot bottle base -- problem solved. YMMV
 
I did suggest it ...a little bit in my remarks above ....

" Make sure all your press setup issues are correct ...is the charge bar moving fully accross and under the bottles ...is the powder bushing really flush ( or polish the edge of the bushing a little - so its flush). " ......

but you're right about doing some preventive maintenance on the press...making sure its lubed properly, etc.....you can't just run these presses for 19yrs with no maintenance....

and watching the bar ...to make sure it travels both left and right ...the full length of travel ...and know how to adjust it if it doesn't ....
 
Thanks for all the input. I just spent two days under the weather and am now just reading your replies. Quick response until I get more time to read them all..... Before I went to bed with whatever is making me feel worse than the cold outside, I set up my old 600 JR and weighed a few drops. It's within .1 almost every time for a number of different bushings. I also had read about the dryer sheet, and before I weighed the 600 drops, I took a screwdriver and "wiped" out the powder bottle. Tonight, I will go back to the 650 and try weighing after wiping the bottle again. I'm thinking you guys are more on target about the static issue than anything. I did check the bar travel a while back, and that looked fine. I'll report back. Thanks again everyone!
 
Hey all,
I think I've cured the issue and it looks like it's 90% static related. Hopefully I'll get the chance to test fire today and let you all know. Unfortunately, it's warm here today, so the cold effects part of the test needs to wait..... Ironic that I would use the term "unfortunately" and "warm" in the same sentence in Minnesota......
 
Static looks to be the enemy. Can't rule out cold issues totally yet, but I'm also trying a different powder than Red Dot which has been my only powder for 35 years. Bought a keg of Clays, so........more testing and info coming. Had only 4 bloopers out of 75 rounds yesterday and ironically broke 3 of those birds, but the puller said he could actually see the shot fall short of the bird on the one I missed.
 
4 out of 75 ....is still way too high...

I wouldn't accept 4 out of 7,500 as being ok ....

I don't think I've had a "blooper" out of a 12ga, 20ga or 28ga in at least 5 yrs ... and for me, that has to be at least 50,000 shells.../ ...and the last 2 or 3 bloopers I remember were no powder drops on a few shells ...where a spring on my loader broke and I wasn't watching charge bar carefully..../ operator error ...but it does happen to most of us once in a while..

I'm glad to hear you're narrowing the issues down ...but if your powder drops are on the goal ( + - 0.1 grain ) ....you should not ever have 4 bloopers out of 7,500 .....let alone out of 75 ...

Were these 4 shells - using Clays or Red Dot ...?
What variations did you get on weighed powder drops ?
 
Brass Washer-Part Number: 304W

2 Things-Charge bar must complete the full travel. Part Number: 304W This brass washer is placed on top of the powders charge bar.Its keeps powders like W296 from leaking from between the bar & measure. If damaged/flattened, this washer can move with the bar. This can cause powder not to drop correctly, resulting in a light powder charger/wad stuck in the barrel. Set the wad seating ram to show a tiny amount of wad pressure on seating. This will show you if there is enough powder in the case. To much clearance betweent the measure & bar can result in the washer being flatened. Mec will exchange the measure.
100304W.jpg
 
I'm sorry Big Jim,I should have included that those 3 boxes were loaded BEFORE I made the changes and wiped the bottle with softener sheet. Those bloopers were with a slightly higher Red Dot charge. The day was much warmer.....40 degrees..... than past days where there was colder temps and more bloopers. Not scientific enough to prove a cold temp relation, just the observation, that the powder charges were still enough to break birds. Tomorrow will be the Clays test, and you are right......NO bloopers is the only acceptable result.

Thanks 243winxb. I do have the washer, but haven't used it as they instruct you to use it for certain Winchester powders, and I haven't seen any powder leakage. I will try it though, if my static reduction doesn't work. The bar has full travel. That, I've been watching diligently.
 
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