Shotgun vs. Carbine for home defense - I get it now!

R

rc601962

New member
I used to think the carbine was a better choice for home defense. My thinking was that the carbine has a greater number of advantages. So, it must be better

It is true the carbine has more advantages:

1. Less recoil for faster follow up shots
2. Faster and easier to reload
3. Higher capacity
4. Easier to operate by a non-shooting spouse
5. Better long range performance

The shotgun has fewer advantages:

1. Greater likelihood of a one shot stop.
2. Easier to hit a target on the move

Then, it dawned on me. The issue is that the shotgun has the MORE IMPORTANT advantages for a home defense application. It is not about number of advantages. It is about the advantages that are most important to an extreme short distance dynamic gunfight in a limited area. The shotgun wins hands down.

1. Greater likelihood of a one shot stop.

No weapon guarantees a one shot stop. However, 00 buck will give you a one shot stop MORE OFTEN than a .223 or 7.62x39 round. Both will fail to stop with one shot. The shotgun will fail to do this less often.

This is important because at extreme short distance, even if your adversary is alive for 2 seconds after you shoot him, he can still shoot you. Unless your gun choice can put him down immediately, you also stand a high risk of dying.

2. Easier to hit a target on the move

In my home defense simulations, the first thing both the defender and the attacker did when contact was made was to MOVE. Your adversary will be moving. You will be moving. If you have more than one bad guy, you can bet the second bad guy will be scrambling after the first shot is fired. Shotguns are meant and designed to shoot moving things more effectively than carbines.
 
My only thought, knowing your opponent.

If your adversary is or could be wearing "protection", the shotgun would indeed stop them, possibly killing them. The carbine, if the proper cartrige were used would indeed kill them.

Organized crime is seeing more and more use of "protection", body armor. Surprising enough even to LE.
 
Greetings rc601962, and welcome aboard

I'm not sure why you assume a carbine is easier to operate than a shotgun. You need to be more specific about the type of each. A double barreled shotgun is a lot simpler to operate (and clear in an emergency) than a magazine fed carbine. The same can be said about the carbine being faster to reload. While your non-shooting spouse is still fumbling for the mag release button, I've already re-loaded my double.

You haven't looked at the other side of the "one shot stop" issue -- think of the possibilities of over penetration, too. Those high velocity jacked carbine rounds may upset your neighbors a lot more than soft lead balls.

This forum often (read that as continuously) has discussions on the merits of various different model shotguns as HD weapons. The problem I see is that it presumes the shotgun is the best choice. I'm an experienced competitive shotgunner; however, my HD weapon of choice is a hand gun. This leads me back to your initial reference to a "non-shooting spouse" -- many folks assume that in an HD situation, a non-shooter will know how to operate the shotgun because they once shot some cans in a corn field.

If you've selected to have a gun in the house for HD, then those who might need to use that gun should be trained, and continue their training, so as to no longer be classified as non-shooters.

My wife doesn't like shotguns, but spends her range time with her favorite .38 revolver (and the other ones, too). My buddy's wife and adult daughter are both non-shooters. Until now they've both been apprehensive about taking that first shot. My gun club is sponsoring a "ladies only day" for non-shooters, and my wife's invited them to attend. The day starts with classroom instruction and then it's off to the ranges. The two newbies are actually looking forward to shooting in a controlled and friendly environment. Perhaps there is something similar offered in your area that you spouse would enjoy.
 
This is important because at extreme short distance, even if your adversary is alive for 2 seconds after you shoot him, he can still shoot you. Unless your gun choice can put him down immediately, you also stand a high risk of dying.
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Anything is certainly possible. However....why wouldn't you continue to shoot during that two second period in order to stop the threat? 2 seconds....running my shotgun, that is another 5 more rounds on target, at a minimum.
 
I used to think the carbine was a better choice for home defense.
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I think each has its place. I own both. I keep a 12 ga loaded with 00 buck and a Saiga .223 w 30 rd mag. If the shotgun runs out, I have 30 rounds of .223.
Not that I think things will ever get that bad, but down here we do get evacuation orders due to hurricane, and if you stay, you ARE on your OWN. So I sleep better with multiple firearms in such situations.
 
My only thought, knowing your opponent.

If your adversary is or could be wearing "protection", the shotgun would indeed stop them, possibly killing them.
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Any shotgun shotshell or slug (except some of the exotic small-caliber, hardened, sabot-type slugs) are easily stopped by even low cost Level II-IIIA body armor. Of course, the same can be said for virtually any handgun and most pistol caliber carbines (Some .357 or 9mm can penetrate a level IIIA.)
 
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Where?

I think each has its place. I own both. I keep a 12 ga loaded with 00 buck and a Saiga .223 w 30 rd mag. If the shotgun runs out, I have 30 rounds of .223.
Not that I think things will ever get that bad, but down here we do get evacuation orders due to hurricane, and if you stay, you ARE on your OWN. So I sleep better with multiple firearms in such situations.
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I have a similar set up. I have also placed mines in my lawn. My wife has a flamethrower on her side of the bed in case the mines and guns don't stop the intruder.
 
I personally would consider a rifle or carbine to be my last choice for home defense. HD is short range, rifles are designed for long range. As much as I love my rifle, it's just designed for a different set of assumptions.

At close range, good shotgun will provide a far wider wound track and more damage than any standard bullet ever will, including a .223 or .308 round, or a .45 ACP. Combine that with less risk of overpenetration if you're using shot instead of slugs.

If I didn't have a shotgun, I'd prefer a pistol--less likely to overpenetrate than a rifle, and much easier to maneuver around in a house. I would only use a rifle if that was all that I had.

Any shotgun shotshell or slug (except some of the exotic small-caliber, hardened, sabot-type slugs) are easily stopped by even low cost Level II-IIIA body armor. Of course, the same can be said for virtually any handgun and most pistol caliber carbines (Some .357 or 9mm can penetrate a level IIIA.)
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Okay, not even bothering with the likelihood of someone breaking in wearing body armor, how combat effective do you think someone is going to be after their vest just stopped ~3000 joules worth of energy directed at their chest? That would sure as hell knock the wind out of me.
 
Don't assume all carbines are .223 or 7.62X39, we have a 12 ga. Mossburg 590 and a .44 mag carbine close at hand.
Both work well, the .44 mag is good to a hundred yards plus.
Just depends, but either one will defend the homestead against packs of wild dogs, rattlesnakes, the occasional rabid coyote, bobcats in the yard or human predators if need be.
My first choice is the Timberwolf, my wifes first choice is the 12 ga.
Mox Nix, six one half a dozen the other.
Just be familiar with whatever you depend on and shoot it regularly. Confidence in the firearm in your hands is a comforting feeling.
Lot's of people have used "not the perfect gun" to achieve good results in serious situations. So it's a matter of run what ya brung sometimes, good skills with an adequate firearm will trump bad skills with the ultimate blaster.
Good skills with the proper tool is a hard combo to beat but you don't HAVE to own the Worlds Greatest Zombie Blaster to do effective work.
Buy the best you can and shoot it often.

JTMcC.

on edit I'll add that the "best home defense" firearm depends a ton on where you live. I'm in rural NW AZ and we shoot regularly on the property, the nearest neighbors are a long way off and they shoot as well.
It's a different world for someone living in a city apartment or a suburb. Too many variables to boil it down to ONE BEST home defense firearm.
I feel pretty good getting up in the middle of the night to check out a noise with a Garand or even my remington 700. For a lot of people that wouldn't even come close to working.
Anybody messing around my shack at night has already crossed a locked gate and walked several hundred yards to get to the house. Much different scenario than a city dweller.
Bottom line is I'll feel fine with either a shotgun OR a carbine (given my carbine is a .44 mag) for any threat animal (more common) or human.
 
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Okay, not even bothering with the likelihood of someone breaking in wearing body armor, how combat effective do you think someone is going to be after their vest just stopped ~3000 joules worth of energy directed at their chest? That would sure as hell knock the wind out of me.
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Yes. If you hit a crackhead with a 9 in his vest I can imagine that he'd recover quickly enough to return fire. Hit the same guy in the vest with a 12 ga. slug and he's going to probably have a cracked rib or two, and he will take pause to reassess after being physically disoriented for a few seconds.
 
the AR stays locked up at my brothers house.

The 20 gauge stays loaded under the bed.

I currently reside in a 800 sq ft apartment.

Luckily, there is only one neighbor and they are
under the floor.

My primary HD choices right now are Smith 686 and
the mossberg 500.

I feel the shotgun better utilized here than the rifle.
 
Where a person lives should be considered when picking a home defence gun. If i lived in an apartment in a high risk neighborhood A military/police shotgun loaded with the first three round bird shot then the rest with high velocity 00 buck with a 9mm in my bedside table. Living in suburbia with moderate crime, a 9mm as first line weapon within easy reach, with the shotgun by the bedside loaded with straight steel BB's. If i lived in a gang infested area, in a house, I would chainlink fence everything, bar the windows and steel gate the doors, reinforce the walls directly to the sides of the main access door with a few layers of 1 1/8" plywood with some 1/4" tempered steel plate sandwiched between them with no direct sight lines into the house. Then i would have the 9mm in my holster at all times on my person, the shotgun by the bed loaded with 00 buck, and a couple AR type rifles in easy access but hidden. loaded with steel core military ammo. Body armor hung in the closet with helmet and face shield.. In the house would also be safe zones with wall armor built in like the front door area and a bugout hole in the floor. I'm glad i live outside these hot spots, all my neighbors are armed and i only need my 9mm here in my desk and the wife has her nightstand piece.
 
If i lived in a gang infested area, in a house, I would chainlink fence everything, bar the windows and steel gate the doors, reinforce the walls directly to the sides of the main access door with a few layers of 1 1/8" plywood with some 1/4" tempered steel plate sandwiched between them with no direct sight lines into the house. Then i would have the 9mm in my holster at all times on my person, the shotgun by the bed loaded with 00 buck, and a couple AR type rifles in easy access but hidden. loaded with steel core military ammo. Body armor hung in the closet with helmet and face shield.. In the house would also be safe zones with wall armor built in like the front door area and a bugout hole in the floor.
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If you could afford all those guns and mods to your home, you wouldn't need to live in a gang-infested area! :)
 
My brother works for the state of california, he lives in a gang infested area. There is no where near his job that is not a gang infested area.
 
To me, using a rifle for HD is somewhat taboo. Besides, the rifle requires more aim vs the shotgun, which is more of a point and shoot type weapon.

I think the SG is the best choice for close quarters.
 
IMHO a carbine is definitely not the best choice for home defense. I would pick a handgun or shotgun first. I like a handgun because of ease of the ease of manueverability and high round capacity. A shotgun is great to because of power.
 
An AR is easier to use than a pump shot gun? Since when? With the shot gun you pump and shoot, lather, rinse, repeat. Can't get much simpler. Hand someone an AR who has never used a gun see how they do.
 
.357 Magnum and 12 gauge combo team

At my house, after much thought, the Ruger Speed-Six .357 Magnum loaded with good self-defense rounds is the primary choice to grab in the middle of the night. I have awaken at night to some "strange" noises. At those times I was a bit groggy and a bit disoriented for the first few seconds. A choice of simplicity made most since...A potent revolver.

My backup to the revolver, if it is ever needed, is my 12 gauge shotgun loaded with a good grade of defensive 00 buckshot. I keep 2 in the magazine tube, none in the chamber, and 5 more in the butt-sleeve.

If those two tools don't cover the bases...well.........
 
If i lived in a gang infested area, in a house, I would chainlink fence everything, bar the windows and steel gate the doors, reinforce the walls...<snip>
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While I understand the sentiment, if I lived in such an area I'd spend most of my efforts in two areas.
1) Political activism to clean the area up
2) A focused effort to get the hell out of said area

As for shotgun vs carbine, I've long thought that a shorter barreled 12ga combined with a laser sight for fast-on-target would be a devastating combination for home defense.
 
It can be hard when you have time and money invested in an area, especially if it wasn't bad when you arrived. I agree though, if it gets bad I will spend my efforts trying to get out.

I moved into a middle-class suburban area in 1994 which had low crime, a booming economy, and lots of social interaction (sports, clubs, community BBQs, events, etc), new schools and new parks. Approximately 50 thousand people lived in this area.

By 2004 the area had seen a great increase in crime and because MOST of this area was unincorporated it was left up to the county to police it which for that specific area was understaffed, mostly due to efforts by the Sheriff (he spend a LOT of resources in the area which he lived, other areas suffered, he is no longer Sheriff). This area is just a small part of a larger metro area with about 2.5 million people so this little spec was just that, a spec when compared to the total metro. I moved out in 2003 due to the rising crime.

By now in 2010 it's basically the "nice" part of the ghetto. When all the people living in the ghetto get a little money they move here. I don't even drive through my old neighborhood that often because it has become a dangerous place and I used to walk all over this area, kids played, now the only people you see outside are thugs, any kind of decent people stay indoors. The parks are trashed and the schools are dangerous and typically are some of the lowest performing schools in the area.

Shame.
 
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