first off, I am new here and relatively new to guns(almost two years), my question is, I have a stevens 820 shotgun that doesn't have any markings on the barrel for any chokes, so would it be safe to shoot slugs?....I no they make a choke gauge but before I spent the money just to probably only use it once I figured I'd ask around and see if anyone knew
shotgun questions
- Thread starter brandan
- Start date
g.willikers
New member
The old timers used a coin to determine if a barrel was suitable for slugs.
Drop one down the big end and if it sticks in the small end, don't.
If it passes clean through, then do.
Wish I could remember what sized coin it was, though.
But they did a lot of things that are frowned on now-a-days.
This reply wasn't meant to be of any real help.
Just to tide the thread over until something useful comes along.
Like this, maybe:
http://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/viewtopic.php?t=203193
Drop one down the big end and if it sticks in the small end, don't.
If it passes clean through, then do.
Wish I could remember what sized coin it was, though.
But they did a lot of things that are frowned on now-a-days.
This reply wasn't meant to be of any real help.
Just to tide the thread over until something useful comes along.
Like this, maybe:
http://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/viewtopic.php?t=203193
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Welcome to tfl!
Welcome brandan!
You are worried about nothing. Slugs are made to be safe when fired in ANY choke gun (including full choke). Safe.
Where you get your best ACCURACY is usually from cylinder bore (no choke) barrels. (Rifled slug barrels are a different matter, discussed separately. I'm talking about smoothbore barrels here
)
The standard Forster type slug, is often called a "rifled slug". This is because the slug has angled fins on it, that resemble the rifling in a barrel.
Many people think these spin the slug for accuracy, like the rifling spins a bullet. This is not true. Slugs are as accurate as they are, because they are nose heavy, like a dart. It is the weight distribution that keeps them on target, NOT SPIN.
What the "rifling" fins on the slug do actually do, is allow the slug to safely pass through any choke without any serious deformation of the slug or build up of pressure due to the choke restriction. (the fins will squish/flatten a bit as they pass through the choke).
Let me repeat, so its clear, you can SAFELY fire slugs through ANY choke.
You will probably get a better group with an open choked barrel than a full choke one, but both (and everything inbetween) are SAFE to shoot slugs through. Commercial "Slug guns", in the decades before rifled slug barrels became common, were simply regular cylinder bore barrels fitted with rifle style open sights.
Well, you were right, it's no real help!
I had never heard that one before. Amazing what one still hears.
What I do know, is what my Grandfather taught me. His (and his contemporaries) test to see if a 12ga was full choke was to use a dime. You can balance a dime in the muzzle of a full choke 12ga. If the choke is more open, the dime will fall down the barrel.
I have done this, it is absolutely true, BUT it only applies today to guns made in my Grandfather's day, essentially. Modern guns, a full choke 12ga, will let a dime fall right through.
This is because the amount of choke is was not a fixed standard bore diameter. In the old days what choke a barrel had was not determined by the inside measurement of the barrel (although that was the starting point) but by patterning results. The percentage of shot pellets inside a 30 inch circle at 40 yards was the standard. Full choke meant 70% (or more) of the pellets inside the circle.
What ever degree of barrel restriction (choke) it took to produce this result, with the ammo of the day, was what it took. Two different guns with the same choke barrels could be several thousandths inch difference in choke diameter.
This is where my Grandfather's rule came into play. In his era, NO 12ga that would let a dime through the muzzle would produce a full choke pattern, with the ammo of the day.
And, the ammo of the day was a critical factor. Up until the 1950s, when plastic shot cups came into use (along with plastic hulls and star crimps) shotgun ammo was loaded with fiber wads under the shot, and a thin card wad on top, held in place with a roll crimp. Shot pellets could touch the barrel on their way out, resulting in flat spots on the pellet, which meant they wouldn't fly straight. (air resistance causes the damaged pellets to veer off from the main shot column)
With the general introduction of modern ammo with plastic shot cups, deformed pellets were drastically reduced, and therefor more pellets would be in the patterning circle, for any given load.
So, to get the 70%, with the "new" (modern) ammo, a barrel didn't have to be choked as tightly. So a modern gun, 12ga, full choke will let a dime fall through the muzzle, and still deliver the 70% concentration.
Rifled slugs come from the old days too. BECAUSE of the possible wide variation in barrel diameter due to different chokes slugs were made to be able to SAFELY squeeze through the tightest choke you might find.
brandan, don't waste your money on a choke gauge (even though they are cheap), its only an approximate measure anyway. To know what you really have, you have to pattern the gun.
Take your gun, or just the barrel (if possible) to a gunsmith, and they will have a choke gauge. (check first) IF they charge you anything to check your barrel it should be minimal, and ought to be less than the cheap price of the gauge. If they try to tell you something outrageous, go elsewhere (for EVERYTHING!)
Hope this helps...
Welcome brandan!
You are worried about nothing. Slugs are made to be safe when fired in ANY choke gun (including full choke). Safe.
Where you get your best ACCURACY is usually from cylinder bore (no choke) barrels. (Rifled slug barrels are a different matter, discussed separately. I'm talking about smoothbore barrels here
)The standard Forster type slug, is often called a "rifled slug". This is because the slug has angled fins on it, that resemble the rifling in a barrel.
Many people think these spin the slug for accuracy, like the rifling spins a bullet. This is not true. Slugs are as accurate as they are, because they are nose heavy, like a dart. It is the weight distribution that keeps them on target, NOT SPIN.
What the "rifling" fins on the slug do actually do, is allow the slug to safely pass through any choke without any serious deformation of the slug or build up of pressure due to the choke restriction. (the fins will squish/flatten a bit as they pass through the choke).
Let me repeat, so its clear, you can SAFELY fire slugs through ANY choke.
You will probably get a better group with an open choked barrel than a full choke one, but both (and everything inbetween) are SAFE to shoot slugs through. Commercial "Slug guns", in the decades before rifled slug barrels became common, were simply regular cylinder bore barrels fitted with rifle style open sights.
Well, you were right, it's no real help!
I had never heard that one before. Amazing what one still hears.
What I do know, is what my Grandfather taught me. His (and his contemporaries) test to see if a 12ga was full choke was to use a dime. You can balance a dime in the muzzle of a full choke 12ga. If the choke is more open, the dime will fall down the barrel.
I have done this, it is absolutely true, BUT it only applies today to guns made in my Grandfather's day, essentially. Modern guns, a full choke 12ga, will let a dime fall right through.
This is because the amount of choke is was not a fixed standard bore diameter. In the old days what choke a barrel had was not determined by the inside measurement of the barrel (although that was the starting point) but by patterning results. The percentage of shot pellets inside a 30 inch circle at 40 yards was the standard. Full choke meant 70% (or more) of the pellets inside the circle.
What ever degree of barrel restriction (choke) it took to produce this result, with the ammo of the day, was what it took. Two different guns with the same choke barrels could be several thousandths inch difference in choke diameter.
This is where my Grandfather's rule came into play. In his era, NO 12ga that would let a dime through the muzzle would produce a full choke pattern, with the ammo of the day.
And, the ammo of the day was a critical factor. Up until the 1950s, when plastic shot cups came into use (along with plastic hulls and star crimps) shotgun ammo was loaded with fiber wads under the shot, and a thin card wad on top, held in place with a roll crimp. Shot pellets could touch the barrel on their way out, resulting in flat spots on the pellet, which meant they wouldn't fly straight. (air resistance causes the damaged pellets to veer off from the main shot column)
With the general introduction of modern ammo with plastic shot cups, deformed pellets were drastically reduced, and therefor more pellets would be in the patterning circle, for any given load.
So, to get the 70%, with the "new" (modern) ammo, a barrel didn't have to be choked as tightly. So a modern gun, 12ga, full choke will let a dime fall through the muzzle, and still deliver the 70% concentration.
Rifled slugs come from the old days too. BECAUSE of the possible wide variation in barrel diameter due to different chokes slugs were made to be able to SAFELY squeeze through the tightest choke you might find.
brandan, don't waste your money on a choke gauge (even though they are cheap), its only an approximate measure anyway. To know what you really have, you have to pattern the gun.
Take your gun, or just the barrel (if possible) to a gunsmith, and they will have a choke gauge. (check first) IF they charge you anything to check your barrel it should be minimal, and ought to be less than the cheap price of the gauge. If they try to tell you something outrageous, go elsewhere (for EVERYTHING!)
Hope this helps...
I remember guys using the coin trick back when you used to buy shotguns and .22's at the local hardware stores.
A dime will not go through a full chock 12 gauge but it will go through a modified chock.
I remember them measuring at the muzzle with the coin...I'm pretty sure they wouldn't drop a dime through the barrel from the breech because they were afraid they might get it stuck and lose ten cents.
A dime will not go through a full chock 12 gauge but it will go through a modified chock.
I remember them measuring at the muzzle with the coin...I'm pretty sure they wouldn't drop a dime through the barrel from the breech because they were afraid they might get it stuck and lose ten cents.
You might find the choke marking on the barrel near the receiver, like the letters; IC, MC, FC. I believe the dime technique does not work. The only way you might tell the choke on the gun is to pattern it at forty yards and get the percentage --- and even then you'll get different patterns with different loads.
Dreaming100Straight
New member
Are you sure there are no markings on the barrel identifying the choke? Perhaps a number (1,2,3,4, or 5) inside a square. Everyone assumes this is a 12 gauge, but is it?
I'm not familiar with that particular gun, but the markings might be a number, letter, or simply an "*" or something like that. IT is also remotely possible that "no marking" is actually a marking for a given choke. Some guns simply were not marked. You need to find a Stevens guru. Good luck!
g.willikers
New member
The effective choke of a barrel can be altered by the ammo, itself.
Here's a good explanation of how:
http://www.thefreelibrary.com/Handl...+change+patterns+at+the+breech...-a0241516859
Here's a good explanation of how:
http://www.thefreelibrary.com/Handl...+change+patterns+at+the+breech...-a0241516859
Blindstitch
New member
I'm not sure about yours but I searched Numrich and that have 5 listings for barrels and all of them are improved cylinder.
http://www.gunpartscorp.com/Manufac...3479/Shotguns-40503/820-41393.htm?results=All
http://www.gunpartscorp.com/Manufac...3479/Shotguns-40503/820-41393.htm?results=All
Pattern gruping in O/U?
Dear All,
I could not find any better thread to post a question, but this one. By using search I could not find any answer.
So, the question:
With new B525, O/U, 12 gauge, the lower barrel (1/4 choke) is grouping the pattern as per sight.
The upper barrel (1/2 choke) is grouping the pattern a bit to the left.
Chokes are changeable.
Is there any way to correct left grouping in upper barrel?
Can this be corrected by changing the choke?
Any advice?
Thanks!
Dear All,
I could not find any better thread to post a question, but this one. By using search I could not find any answer.
So, the question:
With new B525, O/U, 12 gauge, the lower barrel (1/4 choke) is grouping the pattern as per sight.
The upper barrel (1/2 choke) is grouping the pattern a bit to the left.
Chokes are changeable.
Is there any way to correct left grouping in upper barrel?
Can this be corrected by changing the choke?
Any advice?
Thanks!
Dreaming100Straight
New member
Move the chokes to the other barrel and see if the barrels then shoot to a different point of impact. It is possible that a choke is askew and that all you need to do is replace that choke.
I tried exchanging the chokes as Dreaming100Straight, has suggested above.
However, the upper barrel is still grouping slightly to the left, compered to the sight and lower barrel.
Now, the question that comes up is following:
Can this be related to chamber / or ejectors, if they position unfired cartridge slightly to the left, making it not aligned with bore?
Generaly, does the problem of two barrels "misaligned" grouping pattern happens frequently on over and unders?
However, the upper barrel is still grouping slightly to the left, compered to the sight and lower barrel.
Now, the question that comes up is following:
Can this be related to chamber / or ejectors, if they position unfired cartridge slightly to the left, making it not aligned with bore?
Generaly, does the problem of two barrels "misaligned" grouping pattern happens frequently on over and unders?
What you are describing is a "barrel regulation" problem. And yes, it happens with every over/under and side-by-side. Some manufacturers do a good job of regulating the barrels to the same point of impact and others do a poor job. This is definately a case of getting what you pay for as the cheaper shotguns are normally the worst regulated.
If I'm not mistaken, there is a way for a good gunsmith to regulate the barrels - although it probably won't be cheap.
Dreaming100Straight
New member
You say the upper barrel is grouping slightly or a little bit to the left. Exactly how much to the left and precisely how are you making that determination? If the gun is ever so slightly canted (the upper barrel is not exactly over the lower) it may shoot a little off. Also, I believe if you are ever so slighlty moving the gun the POI of both barrels will be off, but the effect will be greater on the upper. Not sure about this so wait for someone with more knowledge than myself to talk about this. Has the gun been patterned by a veteran clay shooter and has it been done from a bench in order?
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Hi, Dreaming,
Tx for answer!
How did i determine the grouping patern?
I did it by placing a paper target at 25 meters distance. Putting a black marker dot in the center of the target as a point of aim, aiming at it, and firing.
Replacing the target for next barrel, and repeating it.
Did it offhand, and from bench. Changed target each times. Changed few types of ammo. Exchanged the chokes.
Same result with birdshot, and buckshot.
The center of the upper barrel group pattern (hard to estimate precisely but) is about 12 cm to the left, from actual point of aim, at 25 meters distance.
The gun is out of box, new. The pattern was not established by any veteran clay shooter, but my self, as I wanted to test the gun before going for the hunt, in the field.
After testing as per above, then, of course, I tried it on the clay pigeons, with trap ammo. When firing upper barrel, I kept it a bit off to the right compared to aligning the sight for lower barrel plus the natural lead, but this movement I still don't make naturally and automatically, I need to focus and I loose precious time for the second shot.
Anyway, during the first hunt with this gun (as it is), out of 4 pheasants and a rabbit driven by dogs, I missed only the first pheasant, and have bagged the rest.
So the gun is usable, but solving this problem - would give me a great piece of mind.
Tx for answer!
How did i determine the grouping patern?
I did it by placing a paper target at 25 meters distance. Putting a black marker dot in the center of the target as a point of aim, aiming at it, and firing.
Replacing the target for next barrel, and repeating it.
Did it offhand, and from bench. Changed target each times. Changed few types of ammo. Exchanged the chokes.
Same result with birdshot, and buckshot.
The center of the upper barrel group pattern (hard to estimate precisely but) is about 12 cm to the left, from actual point of aim, at 25 meters distance.
The gun is out of box, new. The pattern was not established by any veteran clay shooter, but my self, as I wanted to test the gun before going for the hunt, in the field.
After testing as per above, then, of course, I tried it on the clay pigeons, with trap ammo. When firing upper barrel, I kept it a bit off to the right compared to aligning the sight for lower barrel plus the natural lead, but this movement I still don't make naturally and automatically, I need to focus and I loose precious time for the second shot.
Anyway, during the first hunt with this gun (as it is), out of 4 pheasants and a rabbit driven by dogs, I missed only the first pheasant, and have bagged the rest.
So the gun is usable, but solving this problem - would give me a great piece of mind.
Blindstitch
New member
Why don't you call browning and talk to them. Since it's new with few shots through it maybe they will fix it for you.