Shotgun mods and add ons....

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Dave McC

Staff In Memoriam
There's a lot of discussion here and elsewhere on what should be done to or add on to a shotgun for HD.

I'd like to express my opinions on some of the stuff, including some mindsets that kinda concern me, So, con su permisso.....

First,any reliable shotgun is a defensive weapon of incredible effectiveness and power.
It comes as close to a guaranteed one shot stopper as we know of,that can be operated by an individual.Within 25 yards, it may be the best possible choice for defense,bar none.

Any trained and motivated adult armed with a shotgun and appropriate ammo is well capable of taking care of themselves,and maybe that's part of the attraction of the shotgun.

But the myth kicks in,aided by Hollywood and war stories. For HD, we don't want a wide spread pattern,we want precision of placement for max effect,not stray pellets ending up in the wrong,sometimes tragically wrong, place.

And,a shotgun is NOT a Magic Amulet, shielding from harm by its mere presence, you HAVE to know how to use it.

SO, the proper mindset,IMO and IME,goes for close range,well placed COM hits.This requires practice, practice and more practice. We tend to concentrate on the gadgets sometimes,when what we need is mo' ammo and mo' range time.

So, if you spending more on addons than ammo, you may do well to reprioritize....

Now the mods....

Backboring, porting and so on. Not essential, but not useless. I've not heard a bad thing about the Vang system from anyone, nor the old Pro Port. Not cheap, and suitable for advanced students and pros. The average homeowner has not that much use for these extras.

Forcing cone work. A number of smiths can do this well, it helps reduce recoil, keeps pellets in the pattern,and costs maybe $50-75. I have it in several shotguns, and like it.

Trigger work. This borders on essential with the litigation triggers coming out of the factory these days. Some weapons still have decent slap triggers, but a clean, 4 lb trigger is a joy forever.

Now, the addons....

Sights. I like a peep,like the ones it's fashionable to call Ghost Rings now. They're non essential,but are a great help for a dual purpose shotgun,say deer and HD.

Slings.Not on a HD weapon, just something to get in the way...

Scopes for HD, naw...
Lazers,also naw.... Fragile,expensive and impractical.

Lights,close to essential. I confess to not finding one I really like,but I'll keep looking. The Starfire's next.

Stocks. While a pistol grip full stock is usable, the Miami Vice type PG is NOT what you want for serious work. I know of no serious WIHTF types that have one on a GP shotgun and the few I've seen have been on Class III shorties, suitable for very CQ work only.Me, I find the standard stock quite workable.

Mags. Face it,any AS scenario that requires more than a round or two of shotgun ammo to resolve probably requires backup more than a few more rounds. Having gotten that off my chest, the HD 870 here has one. Besides the coupla more rounds, the extra weight aids control and the clamping to the bbl usually tightens slug groups dramatically.

Butt cuffs and Sidesaddles.Again,how much ammo are you going to need? Last time I check the database, one perp, one shot.
Still have a Sidesaddle on the HD 870, but I get a trifle paranoid.

Specialty ammo. Why buy it if you can't afford to train with it? Plain old 00 that you can buy easily beats the stuff the gun writers rave about, but a semester at Yale and a case of ammo are about the same price.
And, I recommend having plenty on hand, it won't get any cheaper and it may become unavailable,considering the political climate.

And every practice session should have some duty ammo,tho field loads can be used for part of the training. Besides, you need to see if the stuff DOES work IN YOUR WEAPON, periodically.

And, this is opinion,not graven on a tablet of stone by a Finger of Fire.So, I expect discussion and dissent. Thanks...
 
I think you pretty much covered it all.
:rolleyes: I do like the side saddle with extra ammo. Where it is true that a gunfight would be over in one, two or three shots total. I prefer to be prepared for the unexpected. I would not want to be in a gunfight and have to quit for lack of having ammo. And when the FBI agents stopped the two bank robbers in the famed "Miami Shootout", they probably thought they were well prepared also. Sometimes the unexpected does happen. I'm glad you said you still have your side saddle. Tactical sling: I had trouble with this concept in the beginning. But now I love it. Probably will see more use during competition than real life,but the sling does have a necessary function. My two cents, enjoyed reading your post.

------------------
Courage is only fear that has said its prayers.
 
Three things are essential: Practice, ammunition, and a weapon in good condition. Modifications are nice if you can afford them, if not, use what you have, and know what you do. On my 500a I do have to side saddle (I'm a little paranoid also, plus I like the extra weight. When I get a chance I would like the speed feed stock - more ammo = more weight = less recoil.) I've tried the pistol grip full stock but no one makes one with a 1911 style slide release for my 500(Hmmm). if you shoot slugs, then you need sights. My choice - MMC ghost ring with tritium front and rear. I would like a weapon mounted light(of my own design)(I heard they're great for deer Hunting) but my wife says I have enough toys (Imagine that!) As for slings I think around the house, no. out in the field, yes s/g's do get heavy over time.
 
Thanks, guys. Re slings, my HD 870 has none, my deer 870 does,except when in use as HD backup during non deer season.

As for Speedfeed stocks,if you like it, fine. This HD 870 with 5 in the mag(holds 6) and 5 in the Sidesaddle oughta be enough,and the piece is about an oz shy of being too heavy.

BTW, even with ghost rings, most shotguns pattern buck below POI with slugs,mine runs less than a foot, but it's still a little low.
 
My 870 has a 20 inch deer barrel with rifle sights and before I bought my semi auto "sport utility" rifle this was my UN PC shooter. The only mods were luminous paint on the sights, and an anodized/parkerized aluminum magazine extension. This gives me 8 rounds of 2 and 3/4 inch or 3 inch shells.. no need for a side saddle in that configuration. Like Dave said if you have to shoot mre than a few rounds you need the cavalry not more ammo.

The other mod I use for carrying in the woods. I have a sling swivel mounted in the magazine cap, (for deer and elk) and if its birds, and my 3 shot plug is ALSO a choke caddy (and you can stash your tube wrench in there too). Kinda cool. For birds I use a 26 inch vent rib barrel. (I have also been known to chase birds with a black powder double barrel shotgun)

The gun wieghs a lot fully loaded but i does help keep the recoil down on heavy magnum shells.

and with a rem choke rifled tube i can put 3 winchester 2 and 3/4 inch slugs all touching at 50 yards. it kicks like a mule though.

Dr.Rob

[This message has been edited by Dr.Rob (edited February 10, 2000).]
 
Thanks for the response, Doc. It's funny how some folks regard ammo capacity. On another BB I just saw a thread about how people carry their ammo. One fellow chimed in saying his shotgun had an extended mag, a sidesaddle, a butt cuff, and one of those slings than serve as a bandolier.That's enough ammo for a dove hunt!!

Pick up your shotgun and then add a box of shells. Does it feel a little sluggish when you swing it(G)?

Also, good point about the painted sight. A little jar of white or yellow Testor's Enamel is a great accessory.
 
I'd have to say I'd agree with Dave McC on all points. I always chuckle to myself when I see those dudes with all the accessories on their shotguns and ar-15s.

My HD shotgun is a plain old 870 Express Magnum with a Choate mag extension, and that's it. Keep it simple, stupid.

I do plan on adding a rear sight though, and I might do that Vang Comp thing for the hell of it.
 
Winchester 1300 Shadow. Use it for HD, hunting, and trap shooting. No accessories, spent my money on reloading equipment for more shooting!

Plan on getting handgun for hunting, target shooting, take on camping trips, and self defense.

Shotgun/handgun: what could be a better combination for HD?

Shok
 
I agree with Dave McC,

The ONLY addition I would highly reccomend when you can afford it is the VangComp Modifications. I was a bit skeptical until I tried one... my #8 shot pattern was decreased by over 75% at 10 yards, the recoil which used to leave my shoulder black & blue left nary a bruise and the porting eliminated muzzle rise and DECREASED muzzle flash! From my 18" Cyl 870 barrel 00 buck groups 9 pellets in UNDER 1.5"! at 7 yards and under 4.5" at 15 yards. The gun is now a real pleasure to shoot. Also have a surfire foregrip...

Ben
 
Thanks, guys, you've brought up some good stuff.

A thought struck me,Ben. That Vang system would be great for folks that want/need a shotgun for HD but have little upper body strength and/or recoil tolerance, like most of our wives,daughter,etc.

Less weight in a HD shotgun means greater kick,more weight means the piece becomes unwieldy for those of us not built like defensive linemen or Sumo pros.

Posit this, a 20 ga 870 Express Youth, or Defender, or Ithaca 37(if one can be found) Vanged out and handling like an M-1 carbine but not kicking so hard that practice is torture and firing it repulsive to those we love. Combined with low recoil loads, this should work.
 
Very good observations, so far. Lean mean and fast is the way to keep any tool, regardless of function, if you have to carry it in your hands. Tools for craftsmen are always characterised by being simple, durable, labor reducing and capable of producing quality results. An axe is for chopping down trees and the HD shotgun is for solving unexpected problems quickly and safely.

IMHO...
If you need xtra shells go for the extended mag tube and throw the side saddle in the kitchen drawer with all of the other RONCO items like the Vegamatic. For the Guy w/ the extended tube,sidesaddle, and boot I would suggest the he add a bipod with wheels to help carry it around. Ha Ha

But seriously:
Once you take a shell or two out of a side saddle the chance of it snagging on something like your belt, shirt, etc. goes up. I have also had bad experiences with plastic gun accessories breaking when impacting other hard objects like door knobs, floors, truck beds, other guns, etc. The cold also makes plastic brittle. I preach removing anything that can snag or hang up on an HD anything. I hate it when a guns get snagged on stuff and I am always surprised and upset when it happens. Usually clothing or some kind of bush, tree, or other vegetation. It sucks when a tree branch has a better hold of your gun than you do. Fortunately, most basic pump shotguns that come from the factor pretty much snag proof.
 
I do hear tell the Remington's 8 pellet reduced recoil 00 buck is hard to beat... supposedly with 50% less recoil than standard buck and is supposed to pattern BETTER than Federal Tactical buck,,, sold as LE stuff though not restricted. Hard to find. I am trying to get some to test, Will reply to the group.

Ben
 
DDT4free, I got one of the first Sidesaddles offered, and have not had any problems with it as far as snagging goes, in fact no problems, period. I keep 5 in the mag, 5 in the SS and ten shots should be more than enough for HD. There's two Brennekes in the SS if the parameters change. And, the whole package comes in around 9 lbs, and handles OK for me, and recoil's not an issue with all that weight.

OTOH, the 870 that's for deer during the season and backup the rest of the year has none.

Butt cuffs do hinder handling, IMO,and I regard them as egregious in most cases.

Ben, do they make that stuff in 20 ga? Daughter will be on her own soon and she doesn't like shooting shotguns.

As for me using the low recoil stuff, I've still got plenty of ammo here and don't mind the recoil in my heavy shotguns. Bench resting with slugs does call for an external recoil pad(called the Wonderbra hereabouts), perfect form,and a dose of analgesics/anti- inflammatories first.
 
Thanks for all that, Erick, looks like good input. We do disagree on a coupla things.

Bead sights can be used with good effect, it's harder but possible. Fired one qualifier with a stock,issue 870 Riot and got a possible. I do prefer a ghost ring setup, but it's not absolutely essential, IMO.

Slings ARE essential, for a weapon used out of the house.Inside, they're just a snag waiting to happen and probably at the very worst time.

Good point about long stocks, I forget that not everyone has a 36 short sleeve so the standard stock is a bit short and just right while wearing winter gear or flak jacket.

GREAT point about range time. I think that the nature of the practice doesn't matter up to a point,as long as the shooter is shooting using good form. A trap shooter with his O/U is halfway there since he knows his weapon inside and out.

Once the shooter is comfortable with the shotgun,then the advanced stuff, more tactics
and more complicated exercises.And,nobody knows it all...

As for training, lots of mine was paid for by various gummint agencies. There's better available,but the best training in the world won't help an unmotivated student or one uncomfortable with his weapon.

Re bbl clamps, anytime the weapon is disassembled, zero should be rechecked.

If you don't know, I had posted a thread with a coupla exercises, feel free to resurrect and add to it.And thanks again..
 
Dave McC, Thanks for your reply. You know, to be honest, I have never heard anyone besides me complain about a side saddle. My comments are more about my philosophy regarding firearms than about some universal truth.

I use the word philosophy because there is no absolute one true answer(for me) regarding any firearm. I have found firearms that are better or worse than others but none are perfect. (The same goes for accessories)

Now Although you may never have had a weapon snag from a side saddle that does not mean it can't happen to you or others.

This gets to the root of my philosophy about these things. It may snag, it may not, but it definitely won't snag if it's not on the gun.

Now, I probably was a little hard on plastics as modern plastics properly manufactured offer many advantages to be sure. It's just that I know of lots of ways to repair or fabricate damaged metal. Plastics especially plastic parts under tension or stress(magazines etc.) can be hard to repair once broken and nearly impossible to fabricate by myself.

If you were to choose a mag extension you will have plenty of ammo to get the job done. At close HD ranges buck shot will not behave much differently than slugs. So there is no real need for a slug change up.

Now if you are stretching the ranges out to where the 00 buck spreads and a slug is needed for penetration or accuracy then you are probably outside of HD mode and more in the mode of "I'm gonna go out and kill something". For the latter, I would still opt for a mag extension and a bandolier of a variety of ammo organized for easy id and retrieval. I'm not talking about one of those bandolier slings but one that is just a bandolier(like Pancho Villa).I have one that clips on like a belt or you can just throw it on over your head and shoulder like Pancho(Elapsed time 0.5sec). I also have one of those sks ammo carriers loaded with a variety of ammo. It will hold something like 70+ 3inch shells and keeps em close to the middle of the body so the weight is easy to carry. Not for HD though!

I also don't like butt cuffs but find that I prefer them over a side saddle as they are not in my field of vision but still provide alternative ammo types.

Slug changeup would be a very interesting thing to explain in court as well, providing there were witnesses that survived.

Now I must conceed though, that if you have to have mixed ammo to defend yourself, and you must have it self contained with your firearm, and you must be able to change ammo types as quickly as possible, and you can efficiently manipulate a sidesaddle bearing shotgun under all conditions, then the only alternative that makes sense is to put a side saddle on the shotgun.

That said, I agree with everything else you have said. All valid points. Thanks ddt.
 
DDT4FREE, some good points there....

A SS works better for me than a butt cuff, which tends to slide sometimes and gets in the way of a fast mount for me. If t'is otherwise with thee, go for it.

And,slugs are just because I'm in favor of having a Plan B, which is why there's more than one HD weapon here at Casa McC.

I'll worry about slugs being defensible in court when I get there, but I would imagine the answer would be,"Sir, all my training and understanding of the limitations of the ammunition at hand and my observations at the scene led me to believe that the slug was the best option".

Have a good'un....
 
I use a red-dot scope on my 870 ... for one reason - I'm right handed/eyed but have lost most vision in that eye. The scope mount gets the red-dot up high enough that I can use the left eye while shooting righty. Just remember to turn the thing off ...
 
Clogbert,you've an eye and an arm on the other side, why don't you switch to shooting lefty?

I'm not especially gifted, but I used to fire the qualifier left handed for betting purposes,and scored over 90%.
 
Since your post, I have taken my Rem 870 Marine Magnum into the gunsmith to have ghost ring rear sight and rifle front sight with tritium insert added to gun. So now I have Marine Magnum, side saddle, and ghost ring sights. This particular gun , I do not have tactical sling on. Come on, have to do a little at a time. :p
 
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