Shot Placement and Practice: Am I likely to get any better?

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psyfly

New member
I recently had the opportunity to acquire both a Springfield Armory Ultra Compact V-10 and a Colt Defender.

They are both gorgeous!

I went to the range this weekend with my:

Star BKM 9mm (my most common carry before acquiring the new to me .45 compacts)
5" 1911 (1927 Argentine, or Sistema) Colt which I've had for 25+ years
Star PD (.45 compact)

And the two "new" .45s

With the following results (official 9" paper plate targets).

Star 9mm: fairly neat Point-of-aim patterns about 2 inches or so at 25 feet
1927 Argentine: fairly neat POA patterns, also 1 1/2 to 2 inches at 25 feet
Star .45: ragged POA patterns about 3 to 3 1/2 inches at 25 feet

Springfield and Defender both: I had to move up to about 15 feet to even get all the shots ON the 9 inch paper plate at all!

:eek: EEK!

I've gone back to carrying the 9mm (shot placement).

While I ponder.

My question is:

Am I likely to get any better with the 3 inch .45s with practice?

What does your experience say?

Thanks,

Will
 
My question is:

Am I likely to get any better with the 3 inch .45s with practice?
Click to expand...

A 3 inch barreled pistol is meant for self defense at close range. It is not a target pistol!

Learn to 'point shoot' with your SD carry-pistols and get a lasergrip for low light, sightless and awkward shooting situations.

Oh, and learn to move off the x as you shoot. That's your best bet for surviving a deadly encounter.....not standing and trying to deliver 2 inch groups on a stationary threat.

SD shootouts ain't like the range.
.
 
IMHO Any new gun should be fired from a rest first.
You still don't know if it's the gun or you that is the problem.
If it shoots good from a rest, you just need more practice.
If not....:eek:

I had a Charles Daily ECS ( the 3 1/2" barrel) that was an absolute tack driver with ball ammo.
But, it would jam on hollow points every time.
I sold it and bought a Para LTC, but the point is, it IS possible to have an accurate short barreled 45.
 
Thanks for the replies.

I've been shooting for a long time and (when I was just a lad) did pretty well in competitive shooting.

Never owned a compact until just now.

"A 3 inch barreled pistol is meant for self defense at close range. It is not a target pistol!"

Understood. Is there, then, no relationship between ability to hit a target and effective SD shooting?

"SD shootouts ain't like the range."

I fully expected as much. I, however, have never been in an actual SD shootout and appreciate the perspective of those of you who have. Thanks.

At my age and condition, I:

1.) Am no longer capable of intensive/extensive tactical training.

2.) Fully expect to live out the rest of my life without any actual SD practice.

I do, however, desire to protect myself and loved ones as best as possible and to be prepared to be wrong about #2 above. I will gratefully take any advice I can use to become better prepared to do so and, at the very least, will continue to carry the 9mm while I give myself a chance to be more accurate (in whatever situation) with the 3"s. Thanks again.

Will
 
With the shorter pistols, it's worth shooting the large 'people size' silhouette targets at shorter distances. Like the other guys said, you won't be shooting bullseye with it.


It really helped a friend of mine get his .380 to hit paper with a larger target. You can see where the bullets are going and either adjust the sights or mentally adjust to know where the gun is pointing.
 
The shorter sight radius (distance between the front and rear sight) of the 3" versus the 5" means that any deviation from perfect sight alignment is magnified at any distance and the further from the target you are, the more you will be off for a given imperfection. In other words, it's easier to shoot a longer barreled gun. That said, I totally disagree with the concepts of "it's for defense so it doesn't matter" or "get a bigger target." You are still responsible for getting hits and just because it would make it easier or convenient, you don't get to choose how difficult the target solution is. I suspect the issue is software, not hardware but get a solid shooter to give your compacts a test and then you'll know where a change is needed.
 
Thanks, again.

Seeing where the bullets are going is, of course, why I moved up closer on the target in the first place.

"...software..." Is what I expected. That gives me hope that with a little practice, I can hope to get better.

In the meantime, I am not comfortable relying on being able to use the 3" solutions in real-time SD if I can't hit anything under ideal conditions.

I'm much more confident, FBOW, of my effectiveness with the 9mm and/or the 5" .45 (which is just a bigger PITA to CCW than the others).

w
 
psyfly,

Were your misses with the 3" guns oriented in any particular direction or just spread out?

Also, in terms of "hope to get better", if you do what you always have done, you'll have what you always had. If you are the broken part of the puzzle, get fixed. If it turns out to be the gun, fix it but either way, doing the same thing over and over but expecting different results is one definition of insanity.
 
When shooting my snubbies, and I don't have a silhouette handy, I practice on paper plates at about 10 yds or so. It has helped me shoot the short guns better.

For even more of a challenge, try paper saucers at 15+yds.
 
I shoot a pretty short barreled .9mm, sig 239. I practices mostly between 5 and 8 yards. At that distance my shoots are about an inch and a half off point of aim but still in a tight group. That because I have bad habits in my trigger pull. The best way I have found to work out those issues is to put the targer back to about ten to 12 yards and do some real slow, concentrated fire. That way i pay alot more attention to where Im shooting and how I pull the trigger. I then move the target back to my ususal distance and my shooting is pretty much on target. So yeah, practicing outside SD distances with a short barrel is a good idea, IMO.
 
You'll get better with practice. Small guns are harder to shoot accurately, they're made because they're easy to carry, everything else is a tradeoff.

It is quite possible to be accurate with a small gun, assuming the gun/ammo combination is capable of good accuracy. I've seen an exhibition shooter (Bob Munden) make a hit on a man-sized target at 200 yards with a .38 snubbie.

I'm not that good, but with my Kahr CW9 I can keep 5 shots under 4.5 inches at 25 yards. ;)
 
psyfly:

I use a 1" orange round sticker in the center of my paper plates. You can get them at office depot or some place like that. At 30 feet there is little difference between my 5" barrel (custom kimber) and 3.5" barrel (HK USPc) shot groups. I can hit with my Kahr K9 just as well. Of course this is all slow fire for accuracy. I do not do much rapid fire. I want the first shot to count.

Sounds like you have much experience, but my epiphany for getting great shot groups was when I started thinking "hammer release" instead of trigger pull or trigger squeeze and quit insisting when the hammer is to drop. I tease my buddy... He says; Well how do you know when the hammer is going to fall? I tell him "I don't... on any of my guns. Then I tell him he knows exactly when the hammer is going to fall...just as soon as he yanks on that trigger!

I just aim steady and apply increasing pressure to the front face of the trigger until the hammer decides to fall. I quit anticipating the shot and recoil. That all happens when the magic trigger pressure is reached. I get great shot groups with any gun and can feel trigger creep and overtravel really well. I don't mind a little trigger creep. I just keep steady aim and keep applying pressure till the hammer falls. With practice my hammer release gets faster and faster, but accuracy remains high.

Sounds like you may have new gun excitement too! A 3" 1911 is a great carry weapon. I would keep working with it. You should be able to keep them all on the plate at 25 yards.

Respectfully,
Trip
 
Am I likely to get any better with the 3 inch .45s with practice?
Click to expand...
Yes with proper practice and technique. I can shoot my officer's acp at 25 yards about as well as my 5". It's not the gun. You just have less margin for error with the short ones. I would venture a guess that you need to work on your trigger skills. Dry fire or better yet, get professional instruction.

As far as SD goes the single most important skill you can develop is the ability to hit the target quickly. Everything else is secondary. Work on hitting the target, then work on hitting it quickly and multiple times. There is a lot more to shooting quickly than most people think. Seek professional instruction.
 
"I saw him hit a water-balloon @ 200yrds with a .38!"

Yeah, I'll shoot for that!

Seriously, thanks to everyone for their comments and assistance.

True, I've got a lot of experience (though much of it a long time ago) but not much in the way of useful training.

When young, I seemed to have had a natural talent for it and excellent eyesight, as well. Like a lot of youngsters who do pretty well, I probably thought I didn't have much use for training (I'm doing fine, y'all!).

I don't thing my "problem" is the fault of the tools. However, there must be some kind of interaction here; the PD is also a compact and I do significantly better with it (so it isn't only sight-radius, e.g.).

I think some training and some practice, practice, practice and I might just make it to the hall (with a ticket, anyway).

Thanks again, all.

Will
 
In the typical close deadly encounter, to aim, stand and deliver a 2" group at various distances is one step below suicide. You will get shot. That is target shooting....a recreation.
Even the most practiced target shooter will likely trade bullet wounds or death with a determined aggressor.

The single most important thing you can practice for a self defense encounter is to move off the X.
Don't freeze. You must move in order to make yourself harder to hit.

After that learn to draw and shoot as you move. Even slow movement is better than not at all.
Then try hitting a moving target and not only will you see how difficult that is, you will realize how difficult it will be for a threat to hit you as you move....lucky shot aside.
.
 
The only two things I could add (and that's something you probably already know):
1) put aside all the other guns while you train with the officers.
2) Assuming you reload, load up some mild 45ACP for practice. Less recoil lets you focus on sight acquisition better. when you like where you are with whimp loads, gradually crank up the powder back to service ammo levels.
 
Thanks, again, all, for the tips and advice.

My intention (aside from recreation of target shooting, which is considerable) is to learn to hit with the two new pistols, at all). Once that's accomplished, I can worry about learning more about the tactics of the situation.

That in itself, is also somewhat limited. At my age and condition (60+ and let's don't get into it) if I find myself faced with a "determined aggressor", I will likely be toast if I don't react pretty fast in the first couple of seconds.

My intention in SD carry is not to be a target shooter...

And I will do my best not to be a(n) (easy) target...

I will carry the 9mm until I get better with the .45(s) because I believe I have a better chance of hitting with it at all in a defense situation.

While I realize that there may be some trained and determined aggressors out there, I also believe that they are statistically few and the most likely situation is with an opportunist looking for an easy score.


Thanks again,

Will
 
The single most important thing you can practice for a self defense encounter is to move off the X.
Don't freeze. You must move in order to make yourself harder to hit.
Click to expand...

Data and history doesn't support that statement. Hitting the target first is what is important. That doesn't mean you take time to shoot a tight group, but learn how to hit the target quickly. Additionally, you are better off shooting then moving or moving then shooting, not shooting while moving.
 
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