Short barreled rifle question (removable Glock stock)

Hardly a need for such a removable stock, if you have a good grip and practice...If you need an extension, buy a carbine.
 
>Hardly a need for such a removable stock, if you have a good grip and practice...If you need an extension, buy a carbine.<

That's a totally useless response. I don't want a carbine. I want to know what the law is on removable pistol stocks.

I can hit with a Glock - like everbody else, I could hit better with a stock extension.
 
You CANNOT legally install a stock on any gun classified as a handgun, without FIRST obtaining a clearance from (and paying a $200 fee to) the BATF. A handgun with a stock installed becomes an SBR ("short barreled rifle") for purposes of classification. Once an SBR clearance is obtained and the stock installed.....the gun becomes a permanent SBR....and the stock CANNOT legally be removed (and the gun converted back into a hand gun).

Now, having said all of that.....

There is a bit of a gray area, regarding "temporary" or "removable" stocks. The rule is, as I understand it, that IF the stock in question is installed such that it is mechanically fastened to the gun in ANY way, even if easily removed, then it falls under the SBR classification - and you MUST do the SBR process with the BATF. If, on the other hand, the stock is not actually mechanically fastened to the gun in any way, then it does not have to be "SBR'd". In other words, if you simply grip the gun and stock such that it stays as a unit ONLY while you hold it as such (and thus the stock would simply fall off if you cease gripping it)....then it isn't an SBR.

But, even installing a mechanically fastened stock to a handgun for one minute, even if you never shoot it, or leave the room with it, without FIRST obtaining the SBR clearance, is a Federal FELONY. Installing the stock, then removing it, REGARDLESS of the circumstance, is also a FELONY. Note, you can PURCHASE such a stock without the SBR clearance - but you CANNOT install it.

A word of caution: ignoring the SBR rules, just as many other firearm-related regulations, constitutes commission of a FELONY. It ISN'T something to be taken lightly.

So, make of all that what you will.
 
Last edited:
wpsdlrg,

I guess that pretty much kills that idea. Just out of curiosity, does the $200 fee happen yearly, or is it for as long as you own the gun?
 
The SBR clearance, with the $200 tax stamp, is a ONE time thing.....for THAT particular firearm....for THAT particular owner.

Remember though, once SBR'd......you CANNOT reverse it. The resulting SBR firearm can ONLY be transferred to another person as an SBR. Thus, the transferee can ONLY purchase such a gun IF he/she FIRST gets his own SBR clearance (and pays the $200 again). The exception is you can transfer such an SBR to a properly licensed FFL holder, but it still must be transferred only as an SBR.

Since you were asking about Glocks specifically, I assume you were speaking about the Glock 18 stock. That stock is considered to be installed "mechanically".....and definitely DOES fall under the SBR rules.

**Oh and I just did look at the Amazon page you linked. That stock definitely DOES also fall under the SBR rules, even though it simply snaps into place, without any additional bracket required. (I think that stock installs more or less the same way as a Glock 18 stock anyway).
 
Last edited:
>Remember though, once SBR'd......you CANNOT reverse it. The resulting SBR firearm can ONLY be transferred to another person as an SBR. Thus, the transferee can ONLY purchase such a gun IF he/she FIRST gets his own SBR clearance (and pays the $200 again).<

Amazing - so they make the gun largely unsellable. Regulation inspired by the La Brea tar pits.
Thanks for the input.
 
As I added, you can transfer an SBR to a properly licensed FFL holder. But then, he/she can only transfer to another FFL, or someone with an SBR clearance.

So yes, the regs make transfer to another person difficult - but that was the intent, actually. Just as with fully automatic weapons, the Feds don't want it to be easy for the average Joe to have one. I'm not sure that is such a bad idea, given the character of many people these days.

(I'm sure I'll get attacked for saying that, but frankly I don't care.)
 
Once an SBR clearance is obtained and the stock installed.....the gun becomes a permanent SBR....and the stock CANNOT legally be removed (and the gun converted back into a hand gun).
Click to expand...
Are you sure about that last part? Something doesnt quite sound right here. Is his something new?

With most handguns that have a stock capability, the stocks are removable. With many of those, the stock itself is the holster.

I understand the SBR designation, and the gun being considered one, once the tax is paid, but what condition the gun is in afterwards (stock or stockless), is pretty much up to the user, is it not?
 
As far as I know, once it's an SBR, it STAYS an SBR.....and can't be legally converted back.

Whether the stock can be "easily removed" or "easily installed" has nothing to do with it - again, as far as I know.

I'm not the one to argue with on this, however, so I'll not say anything else on the matter. If you don't believe me, or don't want to accept it as it is....by all means, take it up with the BATF, or an attorney familiar with the firearm laws/ regs.
 
Im not disagreeing with the SBR part, just the being able to remove and replace the stock on a pistol version once its been done.
 
Does putting a removable stock on a Glock (like the one in the Amazon page below) have legal implications that wind up having to buy a license to be legal?
Click to expand...

From the questions:

Question:
Will i need a form 1 since ill be putting a stock on a pistol?
Answer:
Yep, makes it an SBR
By EgreenSVT on September 16, 2015
Click to expand...
 
Some good and some not so good info above.

To legally install a stock on any "pistol" you will need to fill out a form 1, pay the $200 tax and wait for BATFE approval. This usually takes about 4-6 months.

Once you have the approved form (and the cancelled tax stamp) in hand you can "make" the SBR. In addition to clicking the stock into place you will need to engrave (per BATFE regs) you info as the "maker". Name, city and State is reguired.

Here's the part that is incorrect above. Removing the stock on a registered SBR does not alter its legal classification. It does not revert to a pistol just becsuse the stock is off at the moment. It remains a REGISTERED SBR until you contact the BATFE and have it removed from the NFA registry.

So, you can take the stock on and off at your discretion. No legal ramifications to that act.

As to selling the gun down the road, that is again incorrect above. A simple letter to the BATFE will remove the gun from the registry and the gun will revert to a standard pistol. The only negative to selling it will be the engraving you had to do to make it into an SBR
 
To legally install a stock on any "pistol" you will need to fill out a form 1, pay the $200 tax and wait for BATFE approval. This usually takes about 4-6 months.
Click to expand...

I certainly don't know the ends and outs of doing it so take the other folks advice on the details--most mistakes or miss-statements here tend to get cleared up pretty quick.

But AFAIK Sharkbite and others info about going to the BATFE is really true. I lost all interest after I found out this requirement is correct so I don't know much about this issue.

But (and this is my point which I am FINALLY getting around to):

Not being able to put a stock on a hand gun seems to me to be one of the STUPIDEST rules around. I mean even the anti-gunners (what??? He wants to attach something to a gun that would make it LESS concealable and LESS maneuverable???) might agree this really doesn't make much sense.
 
wpsdlrg said:
Once an SBR clearance is obtained and the stock installed.....the gun becomes a permanent SBR....and the stock CANNOT legally be removed (and the gun converted back into a hand gun).
[...]
Remember though, once SBR'd......you CANNOT reverse it.
[..]
As far as I know, once it's an SBR, it STAYS an SBR.....and can't be legally converted back.
Click to expand...
No, this is completly incorrect.

First, any SBR can be removed from ATF registry simply by notifying the ATF. At that point it stops being an SBR and you can no longer have it in an SBR configuration.

Second, the ATF doesn't consider a firearm to be an SBR if it's not in SBR configuration: For example, if have an AR-15 SBR and I put a 16" upper on it, it's not currently in an SBR configuration and it's considered to be a regular rifle as long as it has a 16" barrel. I can even travel with it interstate without filing a Form 5320.20 because -- like I said -- it's considered a regular rifle as long as it's not in an SBR setup. But the moment I put a short-barrelled upper back on it, it goes back to being treated like an SBR under federal law.

Now, things get more complicated when you want to configure your SBR as a pistol by just removing the stock. If the SBR started off as an SBR or a regular rifle, then removing the stock doesn't change its legal configuration; it's now just an SBR with the stock removed. However, if the gun started off as a pistol, then removing the stock on an SBR makes it into a regular pistol as long as the stock is removed. The confusion on this issue is because it didn't always used to be this way; this has only been the case since BATFE Ruling 2011-4.

So if you bought a regular Glock pistol and filed a Form 1 to make it into an SBR and then added a stock, you could remove the stock at any time to make it back into a regular pistol, and it would remain a regular pistol as long as the stock was removed. At least, that's how it is for the time being, remember that the ATF likes to change their mind on things.
 
Last edited:
typo

wpsdlrg said:
As I added, you can transfer an SBR to a properly licensed FFL holder. But then, he/she can only transfer to another FFL, or someone with an SBR clearance.
Click to expand...
You keep using the term "SBR clearance". There is no such thing as an "SBR clearance".

In order to own an SBR, an individual either can make and register one using an ATF Form 1 or he can buy and register one using an ATF Form 4. Two copies of this form are sent off to the ATF for approval along with a $200 transfer tax and either a CLEO sign-off (complete with fingerprints and passport photos) or a copy of the buyer's trust or corporation.

When one copy of the Form 1 or 4 comes back from the ATF, it has the identifying information for that specific SBR, it has the owner's name (or trust/corporation name), and it has a tax stamp affixed. This is the paperwork that shows the SBR is properly registered to the owner.

I see what you're getting at when you use the term "SBR clearance", but it can easily be misunderstood to mean it's some sort of license. And considering how pervasive the whole "you need a Class 3 license" nonsense is, we need to make it very clear that there are no permits or licenses involved when individuals want to own NFA firearms.
 
Last edited:
wpsdlrg said:
As I added, you can transfer an SBR to a properly licensed FFL holder. But then, he/she can only transfer to another FFL, or someone with an SBR clearance.
Click to expand...
An individual can also transfer it directly to another individual provided the buyer goes through the ATF Form 4 process I outlined in my previous post. You seem to be implying that an individual can only transfer an SBR to an FFL/SOT, and that's not the case.
 
Last edited:
IIRC installing a shoulder stock AND a longer barrel-16" + to meet legal requirements-keeps it legal.
Click to expand...

There are a couple options for converting pistols into 16+" barreled rifles. That is completely legal and they can be converted back into pistols at will
 
Not being able to put a stock on a hand gun seems to me to be one of the STUPIDEST rules around.
Click to expand...

Oh, I won't disagree in the slightest, BUT, you have to understand the underlying law the regulations are used to enforce.

And that law is, essentially, that there is a legal minimum barrel length for a rifle, and shotgun. Also an overall minimum length. Anything less than the legal minimum, and it's a "sawed off" shotgun or rifle, and subject to NFA regulation

SO, it boils down to legal definitions. Handguns do not have shoulder stocks. Rifles, do. By attaching a shoulder stock, you have created a rifle, and since it still has the pistol length barrel, it is an NFA item. (Adding a stock and a 16" or longer barrel makes it rifle, and since it has a legal barrel length AND overall length, it is regulated under the usual laws, not the NFA.)

Note also that historical curio & relic pistols and their shoulder stocks are in a different category and have different rules.

ALSO, note that over the years from 1934 when the NFA went into effect, the Treasury Dept. has changed their interpretation of the rules more than once.

The best thing to do is contact the ATF (BATFE) and get an answer from them.

You must get approval, and have it registered, and the tax paid, BEFORE you create the SBR, otherwise, you are breaking the law.

be aware that you can legally buy and own the stock, if you don't have a gun it fits, but if you DO own a gun and a stock that fits it, even though you never put the stock ON the gun, you might be liable for prosecution.

The operative principle is "constructive possession". Meaning, if you have all the parts to make the illegal item (unregistered SBR) you could be guilty of violating the law, even though you did not actually assemble it. That is something a jury will decide, and, personally, I think that is a situation to be avoided.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top