Shop employees arrested in Jax, FL

I

Indy Steve

New member
Just saw on the local evening news that employees at 6 different locations were arrested by ATF agents on charges of alleged participation in "Straw Purchases" (?). I thought the reporter said that this is where the employee sold a firearm to a person who was not the intended owner of the firearm. (?)

I guess if it can be proven that the employee knew this was the case that there is ground/cause for arrest. But if all the paperwork is filled out correctly for the purchaser, what's the trouble? What the purchaser then does with the firearm is his problem. Right?

Help me understand this and not be even more paranoid.

Edit1: Officers confiscated "paperwork" and firearms, the reporter said.

[This message has been edited by Indy Steve (edited August 08, 2000).]
 
Sounds like an undercover sting.

It's really pretty easy to understand. Pretend I'm Joe ATF and you are John FFL. I come into your store and buy a gun. While filling out the 4473 I casually mention that I'm really buying the gun for my Dad because he's afraid his DUI bust a couple years ago will make him fail the background check. In a fit a stupidity you continue with the sale. Bam! You just committed a crime. You had a reasonable suspicion that the purchaser was not the intended recipient of the weapon and that the intent here was to circumvent the Brady Act.

Another way to tell is if two people come in to the store. One fingers all the merchandise and settles on the gun. The second one begins filling out the paperwork. At this point a smart dealer would stop the sale ans ask some questions. It's possible that this is a gift situation. If that is the case, let the guy who picked the gun out fill out the form. Who pays for the gun is immaterial. The important factor is that the person filling out the yellow form be the intended recipient. If the dealer still has a bad feeling, stop the sale. The profit from the sale of one gun is not worth the risk of fines and jail time.

This year ATF has been stepping up dealer inspections. The number of FFL has dropped about 75% in the past few years. There are now more inspectors to dealers than ever before. Be careful guys. Read those forms carefully. Make sure the buyer puts their birthday and not the current date in the box. Make sure the photo ID matches what is on the 4473. READ the responses to the questions. Heaven help you if you make a sale incorrectly and a crime is committed with that weapon.
 
Tbeck: "Another way to tell is if two people come in to the store. One fingers all the merchandise and settles on the gun. The second one begins filling out the paperwork. At this point a smart dealer would stop the sale ans ask some questions. It's possible that this is a gift situation. If that is the case, let the guy who picked the gun out fill out the form. Who pays for the gun is immaterial. The important factor is that the person filling out the yellow form be the intended recipient."

It's MY understanding that, in as much as gifts of firearms are NOT illegal transfers, the person PURCHASING the firearm must fill out the form, and so long as the dealer, understanding that a gift is involved, has no reason to believe that the recipient of the gift can't legally possess a firearm, all is fine.

After all, following your scenario, a FELON could by a gun, no problem at all, just by bringing in a friend who was clean to pretend to be the recipient of the gift! A dealer following your advice could end up in some pretty deep doo-doo!

Anyone with a real law degree want to comment?

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Sic semper tyrannis!
 
Hey Rich, do you know which shops they hit?????

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"Government is not the solution to the problem, Government is the problem!"--Ronald Reagan
 
When my Dad bought me my Marlin 22lr last year for Christmas, the shop had me fill the 4473 & my Dad slapped plastic & signed the reciept.

The Feds don't care who pays, they want to know who owns the gun

dZ
 
Yes they were arrested for commiting crimes against
or buying guns for these......
criminals.....???
Always nice to see the current gunlaws on the books.
And have yet more gunowners and even potential ones EXILED.
These people are likely just like the showowners outside of chicago involved in some real fun loving entrapment at its worst
but what happens when they are gunowners who can afford decent legal defense.
They are yet more of your average gunownres that have been labeled criminals yet furhter
in my opinoin adding to the demonization of
gunownership.
GUNLAWS ARE GREAT
GUNLAWS ARE GOOD
GUNLAWS CUTDOWN ON CRIME
WE WILL SPEND MORE OF YOUR TAXDOLLARS to enforce these gunlaws.
Dont simply pursue crimes puruse 'GUNcrimes'
Thanks Lapierre Im sure this one wont bite us in the rear either.

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"those who sacrifice
liberty for security deserve neither"
 
Here's a link for a story in the Florida Times-Union (local Jacksonville paper):
http://www.jacksonville.com/tu-online/stories/080900/met_3752813.html

...talked to my gunsmith a little while ago - he knows a couple of the guys, and is pretty surprised they'd get taken in by a sting like this... (He's also pretty sure they came into his shop at one point a few months back and were blatant about the straw purcahes - no mystery at all. He invited them to leave.)

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"...and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one."
Luke 22:36
"An armed society is a polite society."
Robert Heinlein
"Power corrupts. Absolute power - is kinda cool!"
Fred Reed

[This message has been edited by mk86fcc (edited August 09, 2000).]
 
ok...here's one. Let's say my girlfreind live in another state. She likes guns and I like guns...i'm visiting for a few months and we go to a gunshop, I see a handgun that I like at a real sweet price, so she buys it for me. I've an out-of-state I.D. and she has one for that state so she can purchase the weapon and pick it up instead of me having to wait three months before I go home.

So what's the legalities there?

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Satanta, the Whitebear
Sat's Realm: http://SatantasRealm.tripod.com/Entrypage/entrypage.html

My Disability petition: http://www.PetitionOnline.com/DisbHelp/petition.html
 
Satanta:
That would be illegal. Handguns can not be given/sold to residents of a different state. The only exceptions have to do with LEO's. If your case, the G'friend would buy the gun, then send it to a dealer in your home state.
You would acquire from the dealer in your home state.

NOW, if she choose to keep the handgun, but let you borrow it, that would be different.

Eric
 
Here's one. It kinda goes back to Satanta's post:

I moved from one state to another and took, in a vehicle, all my guns. I then moved from that state to another, and again traveled with all my guns (of course obeying each state law I drove though YR). Now I am living in this last state, it's my Mom's or Girlfriends, or whomever's birthday. Can I give one of my guns as a gift?

USP45usp
 
You know of these gun laws are getting a little extreme -- we do live in one country not fifty! I should have done what USP45usp did. I moved from NJ to Florida. I went to a FFL dealer in NJ who charged me $45 a gun (plus shipping & handling) to transfer the guns to a FFL dealer in Florida. Then the Florida dealer chargeed me another $45 a gun to transfer the guns back to me.
 
Brett,

Gun dealers aren't telepaths. It is possible for two people to walk into a gun shop and one illegally buy one for another. But unless they indicate this situation through either behavior or verbal comments then the dealer has no reasonable suspicion that a straw sale is occurring.

I would guess that professional straw men go in alone with a shopping list. It's the people who either think the dealer is an idiot or are undercover that talk about the sale or indicate through behavior that this is a straw sale situation.

Box one on the 4473 is intended to make the person filling out the form make an affadavit that they are the person who will take possession of the gun. Who pays for it is not important. The goal of the 4473 is to gather identifying information on the purchaser for background check purposes and future tracking should it prove necessary.
 
USP45usp:
Two questions;
Are you both residents of the same state?
Is the sale legal under state law?

If both Yes, then Yes. If not, No.

The resident issue is not complicated, but it also isn't as *solid* as some think. The IRS/ATF recognize that people may be resident of several states in a single year. Heck, the ATF covers living in two states in their FAQ. (FAQ is a PDF document) http://www.atf.treas.gov/pub/fire-explo_pub/qa.pdf
Question B12 and B13 cover this issue.

FUD:
Do you really only want one set of laws? I don't. We'd probably end up with laws like Mass., Cali, NYC, DC, Chicago or NJ.
I like the fact that I can bypass a law with my feet. If I don't like Mass. laws, I can move to NH. If I don't like Arizona Laws, I can move to Cali.
I don't want people 2000miles away make a decision for me.

Eric
(Yes, I'm a libertarian)
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ruger45:
And have yet more gunowners and even potential ones EXILED.
...
They are yet more of your average gunownres that have been labeled criminals yet furhter
in my opinoin adding to the demonization of
gunownership.
GUNLAWS ARE GREAT
GUNLAWS ARE GOOD
GUNLAWS CUTDOWN ON CRIME
WE WILL SPEND MORE OF YOUR TAXDOLLARS to enforce these gunlaws.
.....
Dont simply pursue crimes puruse 'GUNcrimes'
Thanks Lapierre Im sure this one wont bite us in the rear either.[/quote]


Yeah, and speaking of the NRA, just where is that bastion of freedom oriented thought ,Joe/ "nralife", when you need to ask him about all the NRA-sponcered gun laws that we have over the course of thirty two years?

Oh, that's right,Charleton Heston, who supported the Gun Control Act of 1968 and who also said, in 1998 ,that we don't need weapons like assault-style rifles, is running things down at the nice, expensive National Rifle Association building these days, while American gun rights and freedoms are disappearing.

Never mind ;)

--

Vote for liberty - Vote Libertarian.

RKBA Forever!

Join Gun Owners of America, America's premier gun-rights organization, today.
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>You know of these gun laws are getting a little extreme -- we do live in
one country not fifty! [/quote]

Hate to say this FUD, but....
Given the current climate, I'm glad we have 50 state laws. Sure we have CA, MA,NJ and NY...but we also have VT, AZ etc.
Consider:
1) The FEDS want total, encompassing power.
2) The recent (last few years) of Fed gun legislation are designed to supercede state laws and bring all under the Fed umbrella
3) The states are in the way and Schumer, Feinstein and maybe Hillary will destroy all State sovereignty.
4) The founders knew this would someday happen, and thats why we (nominally) have "State's Rights"

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"Quis custodiet ipsos custodes" RKBA!
 
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