Any tips for shooting tighter groups? I'm using open sights, seem stuck at about a 2" group at 10 yards. I usually shoot two-handed, my interpretation of a Weaver stance. Maybe that's just how much my hands wobble? How to make it better? There is a revolver tournament coming up.
Shooting tighter groups?
- Thread starter mutski
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HiPowering Along
New member
Is it you or the gun?
Take the gun's accuracy out of the equation. What is the tightest group it will shoot when properly rested on a sandbag at the same distance? It might be you're shooting the equivalent of a tighter group, but the revolver just isn't.
I had a friend shooting at the range with me last week that had a S&W 686 that wouldn't group better than 4-5" at 15 yards from a table rest position. My Dan Wesson 15-2 w/6" barrel was doing sub 3/4" groups; if he shot my revolver, he got the same tight groups that I did.
Either his old Smith is getting worn in the barrel or his ammo is not what the gun "likes". Wasn't the shooter, t'was the gun!
Take the gun's accuracy out of the equation. What is the tightest group it will shoot when properly rested on a sandbag at the same distance? It might be you're shooting the equivalent of a tighter group, but the revolver just isn't.
I had a friend shooting at the range with me last week that had a S&W 686 that wouldn't group better than 4-5" at 15 yards from a table rest position. My Dan Wesson 15-2 w/6" barrel was doing sub 3/4" groups; if he shot my revolver, he got the same tight groups that I did.
Either his old Smith is getting worn in the barrel or his ammo is not what the gun "likes". Wasn't the shooter, t'was the gun!
Stop shooting weaver, tension pushing and pulling is hard on accuracy. Weaver wasn't developed to shoot tiny groups, it was developed for combat shooting.
If you can use two hands try Iso, with light grip pressure. Don't try to shoot the instant the sights are right, instead bring the gun up and watch the sights. They will wobble, settle somewhat then start to wobble again. When the wobble settles trigger the shot as smoothly as you can. You can't fire the shot smoothly just as the sights are perfect, so don't try. Your wobble will be the limit of offhand groups, and you will be surprised at how good you can actually shoot even though the sights are wandering around. It is a trust thing, you have to try it to believe it.
Basically the same thing one handed, but the stance will be more bladed and the wobble will be worse. You will also have less time in the settling wobble zone to trigger the shot.
If you can use two hands try Iso, with light grip pressure. Don't try to shoot the instant the sights are right, instead bring the gun up and watch the sights. They will wobble, settle somewhat then start to wobble again. When the wobble settles trigger the shot as smoothly as you can. You can't fire the shot smoothly just as the sights are perfect, so don't try. Your wobble will be the limit of offhand groups, and you will be surprised at how good you can actually shoot even though the sights are wandering around. It is a trust thing, you have to try it to believe it.
Basically the same thing one handed, but the stance will be more bladed and the wobble will be worse. You will also have less time in the settling wobble zone to trigger the shot.
The friend who started me shooting last summer taught me the isosoles stance. I thought Weaver seemed more stable, especially having one foot forward and one back - seemed like stable in four directions, vs. just stable side-to-side in isosoles. I'll go back and try iosoles again. I do try to shoot as the sights glide past the bullseye during the wobble cycle. Could definitely work on that more. With my Taurus Tracker .357, I often get a tight group of four shots in the black, plus three strays in the outer rings. Gotta corral the strays!
I did try using the bench rest a while ago, didn't see a huge increase in accuracy. That's using my Browning Buckmark semiauto. I practice dry firing now and again, don't notice the sights moving a lot when I pull the trigger.
I found this video in another section of Firing Line:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4584332856867071363
What do you think of pointing the helper thumb at the target? Man, this guy shoots fast! Seems to work for him... national championships and all. I often put the trigger near the first joint in my finger - he says use the pad under the nail - maybe I need to work on that.
I did try using the bench rest a while ago, didn't see a huge increase in accuracy. That's using my Browning Buckmark semiauto. I practice dry firing now and again, don't notice the sights moving a lot when I pull the trigger.
I found this video in another section of Firing Line:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4584332856867071363
What do you think of pointing the helper thumb at the target? Man, this guy shoots fast! Seems to work for him... national championships and all. I often put the trigger near the first joint in my finger - he says use the pad under the nail - maybe I need to work on that.
armedandsafe
New member
After you have detirmined the basic accuracy of your gun, remember that group is a result of consistency. If you do the same thing every time, if the cartridge does the same thing every time, if the gun does the same thing every time and if the wind does the same thing every time, then the successive bullets will strike the same point every time.
Repitition is the key to accuracy. Practice with light loads or small cartridge to drill your hand and arm muscles into the hold and motion you want. You have finer control over the movement of your trigger when using the pad of your finger tip than when using the joint or middle strut of your finger. Hold your hand out with the first finger crooked as if touching a trigger. Assume that you have to move the trigger 1/4 inch to achieve hammer-fall. Now watch how far you have to move your finger to get that 1/4 inch with the pad, compared to how far you have to move your finger to achieve that same movement of the trigger with the joint or middle strut of your finger. Keep the trigger on the center of the pad, as you lose strength when using the very tippy-tip.
When working to get groups in a target environment (bulls-eye,) put pressure on the trigger when the sights settle on the bull. Hold that pressure when the sights wander off. Increase the pressure when the sights next settle on the bull. Eventually, the gun will fire, and will do so while the sights are settled. If you find yourself starting to wander more than you are settling, then back off, drop the gun off target, relax and count a few seconds. Then bring it back on target and start again.
Look at the fit of the stock to your hand. The stock should fill the hollow of your palm and rest your trigger finger pad naturally on the trigger, centered in the vertical curve of the trigger. Build up and/or trim down the stock to get this fit. I had to use pieces and parts from 3 different brands of grips to get my P85 to fit properly. I bought an oversized grip for the Dan Wesson .357 and filed, rasped and sanded until I got that same fit. I put a medallion on the grip of my Colt's BP .36 to get that fit. Now, each of the three comes out of the holster properly fitted to my hand to achieve hits at 7 yards when I point shoot. They also give me consistent groups when I use the sights.
Each of my firearms is capable of greater accuracy (tighter groups) than I am capable of shooting. Once I proved that with bench rest shooting and load development, the rest of it is now up to me. Excuse me now, while I go practice.
That should be worth about $0.02.
Pops
Repitition is the key to accuracy. Practice with light loads or small cartridge to drill your hand and arm muscles into the hold and motion you want. You have finer control over the movement of your trigger when using the pad of your finger tip than when using the joint or middle strut of your finger. Hold your hand out with the first finger crooked as if touching a trigger. Assume that you have to move the trigger 1/4 inch to achieve hammer-fall. Now watch how far you have to move your finger to get that 1/4 inch with the pad, compared to how far you have to move your finger to achieve that same movement of the trigger with the joint or middle strut of your finger. Keep the trigger on the center of the pad, as you lose strength when using the very tippy-tip.
When working to get groups in a target environment (bulls-eye,) put pressure on the trigger when the sights settle on the bull. Hold that pressure when the sights wander off. Increase the pressure when the sights next settle on the bull. Eventually, the gun will fire, and will do so while the sights are settled. If you find yourself starting to wander more than you are settling, then back off, drop the gun off target, relax and count a few seconds. Then bring it back on target and start again.
Look at the fit of the stock to your hand. The stock should fill the hollow of your palm and rest your trigger finger pad naturally on the trigger, centered in the vertical curve of the trigger. Build up and/or trim down the stock to get this fit. I had to use pieces and parts from 3 different brands of grips to get my P85 to fit properly. I bought an oversized grip for the Dan Wesson .357 and filed, rasped and sanded until I got that same fit. I put a medallion on the grip of my Colt's BP .36 to get that fit. Now, each of the three comes out of the holster properly fitted to my hand to achieve hits at 7 yards when I point shoot. They also give me consistent groups when I use the sights.
Each of my firearms is capable of greater accuracy (tighter groups) than I am capable of shooting. Once I proved that with bench rest shooting and load development, the rest of it is now up to me. Excuse me now, while I go practice.
That should be worth about $0.02.
Pops
HiPowering Along
New member
I knew the guy that owned the S&W 686 I mentioned earlier was a much better shot than he was demonstrating with his revolver; the results between the two revolvers (mine and his) at the same distance/conditions is what led me to suggest trying the benchrest test on your revolver. That was an eye-opener for me, seeing the difference between the two grouping-wise. I'd still try the revolver in question from a rest to see what happens.
Isoceles, Weaver, ? - as long as you have a good, stable platform that allows you to repeatedly shoot well is the best "stance" for you. I'll agree that the Weaver stance is more a combat-oriented stance, like a martial arts defensive stance. The Isoceles stance is a bit more consistent than the Weaver in that the "hinge points" - your shoulders - are evenly stressed as you create an even triangle while pointing the gun to the target.
That being said, concentrating and maintaining the front sight on target while giving a good smooth trigger pull without flinching is the most important thing. If you seem to be 'wobbling', I'm not sure how much can be done for it other than training yourself to hold it steady with the smaller muscle groups (hands, wrists) rather than trying to tighten up your torso and shoulders to give it a more rigid platform.
Pilots have a golden mantra/rule - no matter what happens, FLY THE AIRPLANE. Shooting good groups is similar, in that it's FRONT SIGHT, FRONT SIGHT, smooth pull.....
Isoceles, Weaver, ? - as long as you have a good, stable platform that allows you to repeatedly shoot well is the best "stance" for you. I'll agree that the Weaver stance is more a combat-oriented stance, like a martial arts defensive stance. The Isoceles stance is a bit more consistent than the Weaver in that the "hinge points" - your shoulders - are evenly stressed as you create an even triangle while pointing the gun to the target.
That being said, concentrating and maintaining the front sight on target while giving a good smooth trigger pull without flinching is the most important thing. If you seem to be 'wobbling', I'm not sure how much can be done for it other than training yourself to hold it steady with the smaller muscle groups (hands, wrists) rather than trying to tighten up your torso and shoulders to give it a more rigid platform.
Pilots have a golden mantra/rule - no matter what happens, FLY THE AIRPLANE. Shooting good groups is similar, in that it's FRONT SIGHT, FRONT SIGHT, smooth pull.....