Shooting Technique

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badding0

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Has anyone ever gotten bad groups from holding the rifle too firmly. I ask this because yesterday my brother and I went shooting. my shooting technique is that I rest the gun on sandbags. front bag being right in front of forward action screw with enough room for the hand the grip the front rail. the rear bag as far back as possible without touching my shoulder. I pull the gun with both hands very firmly into the "sweet spot" between my collar bone and rotator cuff. I don't have a flinch. im not scared of the recoil. I can control my breathing very well. but my bullet groups look like buckshot. maybe a 4 inch group. my brother takes the same rifle. puts very little pressure on the rifle. rests his hand on the front of the scope. and shoots 1/2 inch groups all day long. I do notice that when I shoot, the front of the gun wants to pop up a considerable amount. maybe its due to the gun not being able to move horizontally and the only place it can go is up.

last week I took a different rifle and shot a 3/4" (3 shot) group holes touching on 2 shots and 1 shot was slightly lower. but this rifle as well I had trouble shooting and getting it to group but I just thought it grouped better because I cleaned all the copper out. but this last shooting session tells me otherwise. (I shot this gun again as well when my brother and I went to the range) the groups opened back up.

I just want to know if, because im gripping the gun too firmly, its casuing the recoil to throw my POI all over the map.
 
The only guns I feel the need to "grip tightly" are the hard kickers or the muzzle light sporters. Both have tendency to lift the muzzle significantly during recoil which will cause all sorts of grouping issues as they bounce away from the sandbags.
If you're putting too much effort in to holding the rifle, your muscles will begin to quiver resulting in rifle movement but this should be apparent looking through the scope.
 
The guns in question are a savage axis .308 and a Ruger M77 in 260.rem. both cartridges are relatively light on recoil.
 
Just because they are light on recoil, doesn't mean that there isn't some sort of flinch involved.

I do agree that you may need to relax and not tense up so much when shooting. It's like golf "let the club do the work" and you'll do better than strong arming it and going for 350 yard tee shot. Shooting is very much the same way.

Here's a test you can do. Let someone else load the rifle for you and have them put a dummy round somewhere in the magazine. If you pull the trigger and it's the dummy round but the rifle barrel moves then you are flinching. This same test diagnosed my brother, wife, and cousins flinch...even though the swore they weren't.
 
and for what its worth. my shoulder is physically bruised from shooting roughly 30 rounds. not what I was expecting from a light recoil gun.
 
For me holding the rifle to firmly does cause my groups to open up. There is a happy medium where you still have control of the weapon yet are not so firm that you are causing harm to your accuracy. When at the range if I feel I'm being to firm with the rifle I'll dry fire a few rounds to loosen up.
 
I always rest the forearm on the sandbag in the same location that my hand would be when in the field.

I hold the rifle snugly against my shoulder, but not pulled tightly into it. The main thing, seems like, is maintaining consistency from shot to shot during a string.
 
thanks for the replies guys. it seems like the general consensus is that I am potentially holding the rifle too tight to my shoulder/fore end.. it just didn't make sense to me because I knew I had a good steady hold on the target, and still have a 2" deviation in any direction using a proven accurate rifle.
 
If you have perfect technique and trigger control, it does not make a difference if you shoot a 12 ounce trigger or a 12 pound trigger. Fact is, we are not perfect in technique, so we like lighter triggers than 12 pounds. :)

If you "muscle" a rifle, the groups will open up largely due to inconsistencies in flinch, bone over muscle slip, follow-through etc.

Natural Point of Aim is something you might read up on. In a "optimum" condition, if you are holding the rifle in the NPA, you can take a nap, open your eyes and still be on target.

Machine Rest rifles have a cable (or air) trigger and no human contact and they are the most accurate man portable firearms there are. The barrel is bolted into metal and weigh from 35 to 60 pounds. If a gun could be held "too tight" these would not be as accurate. What is removed is the human interface. While I have little interest in shooting them, they are useful for load development and ultimate accuracy of the cartridge firing machine.
 
Two aspect though not all there are very critical.

Consistency of Hold: Hold as tight as you want but it has to be consistant. Any miner deviation will cause it to drift out. Lighter hold is easier to determine or be more consistent with. Of course the downside is if it beats up your shoulder (light recoil or not).
As a side note with light loads in 308 and the one gun was doing just that to me. I was tensing up when I shot it at the end of 60-80 rounds. It is a Thumbhole Stock and no recoil pad. Fix was to slip on my portable pad and fine.
I could pick up the other rifle and not tense, my body knew which was going to hurt.
And also consistency involves the eyeball staying open. False loads will also tell you if you are blinking (short blink, drift off, fire and you thing, now what?). 22 practice is good.


Trigger: This is also major. Good technique and good trigger are critical.

So you also have to add in gun comfort and trigger comfort.
Its possible your body does not like the gun. Oddly it seems to not be related to how you perceive it, you may like it and not shoot it well.


5 shot groups are the minimum for accuracy testing, 10 are better (I am at 5 and 6 and on a good day will shoot 10)

Dry firing with a Snap Cap round is good practice as well.
 
If your barrel dosen't have at least 1/16" of free-float and/or the stock is flexible enough that you can push the forend against the barrel, your groups may string, especially vertically, or diagonally.

Don't hold the forend forward of the front rest. It's less detrimental if held behind the rest.

I recently bought a Rem 700 ADL at a price I couldn't pass up. Before shooting it, I took it apart and scraped/sanded the forend to clear the barrel. Then, put fibreglass insulation in the forend pockets and poured epoxy on top, but not so it interfered with the barrel.

Next step, should it be necessary, will involve pillar-bedding, but it's shooting 5/8" groups at 100 yards, so that is probably good enough for a varmint-duty rifle. Also, it has the Mark X PRO trigger that adjusted down to 2.7 lbs. and is quite nice.
 
Well I went shooting today. I shot my brothers .308 again. This time. I rested my hand on the scope. No pressure only rested. And I lightly gripped the the gun with my trigger hand, leaving light pressure on my shoulder. Turned a 1" 4 shot group with hand loads. I'm satisfied. I think the answer is yes. I was gripping the gun too hard.

RC20 I think your absolutely right about gun comfort. I have a Winchester model 70 that my dad had 6" of the barrel cut of, glass bedded and a new walnut stuck after the last one broke. Big fella slipped and fell on it, snapping the original walnut stock in half. Anyways. With those same hand loads, I put 3 shots in a half inch group letting my dad shoot 2 more making the group one big hole. 5 shots half inch. I love that rifle. But my brothers .308 isn't comfortable to shoot it's too light. Not a fan of the axis model.

Anyways thank everyone for the insight and solidifying what I was only assuming could be the culprit of my bad groups. I'm loving this forum.
 
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If you're shooting offhand or in the standing position...you'll have to grip the gun harder on a windy day --- Otherwise --- I think some guns like a firm grip, and others, not so much. Like my Savage Model 12 bolt gun in 223...I shoot it about 1/4" away from my shoulder on a pedestal rest & rear bags --- Any big bores that I shoot, I stuff a couple of rags that I buy in a auto store, and stuff them under my shirt near my shoulder pocket --- I'm speculating that you're not holding the rifle deeper in your shoulder pocket.

You should have a slight rearward pull with your trigger hand.
 
I'm a benchrest shooter 308 caliber, Rem 700 rear bag & Bi - Pod set up. Start with my barrel parallel to the target with the rear bag under my cheekweld. Shoulder is lightly touching the rear of the stock, shooting hand thumb is to the side, no pressure on the stock. Cheek is resting on the cheekpiece moderate pressure. At this time check parallex. This could make your groups open up like a shot gun if it's not adjusted properly. A light hold is easier to perfect then a hard hold. Would not recommend a light hold with a light weight, large caliber rifle unless you want to look like a MMA fighter.
 
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