Shooting Moly Coated bullets?

Redhook

New member
I haven't been paying attention to the hype for about a year and would like to know if anything has changed. Is it still not a good idea to shoot moly unless you plan to shoot it exclusively? Is it still difficult to clean? etc. etc. etc.?

I'm at a point where my boar hunting buddies are recommending Winchesters "Fail Safe" bullets, but I'm not sure if I want to use them since they've got a moly coating. I'd hate to ruin a barrel if I can avoid it.

If you know of websites or have additional information, it would be appreciated!

Thanks!
-Red-
 
Best "unbiased" article I've seen!

http://www.precisionshooting.com/aug98.html

Hey Redhook, That is the best article I've seen on the subject. Be sure to note the "shot count" through the "hot 6.5" that Norma was testing.

I've got a particular rifle that I dread the day I will ever need to change the barrel on. So, I went to Moly in hopes of prolonging it's life.

Now, I know there are some folks who believe you no longer have to "clean" your barrel once you start shooting Moly. I DO NOT agree with that concept at all. Any barrel left uncleaned after firing is prone to pitting, whether Moly is used or not.

Good hunting and clean 1-shot kills, Hot Core
 
hk_cqb,

This is a relatively new Rem 700PSS in .308win. I've gone through break-in and I've got 173 rounds through her so far. I guess part of my question is, if I use these loads, is there a way to clean out the moly if I want to go back to copper? or does it matter?

Thanks guys for the links, I'll check them out!

-Red-
 
Hot Core,

I forgot to ask... what did you mean buy stating that a barrel left uncleaned after firing is prone to pitting? I realize that you should clean right after shooting, but how long can they be left before doing any damage? I can think of a few guns I've left dirty for about a week or so, only because I didn't have the time right after.

Also, I thought it was S.O.P. for police marksmen to deliberately leave the barrel fouled with a single shot so that they can maintain POI CB shots.

Thanks again!

-Red-
 
From personal experience . . .

Just shoot and experiment with the different types of ammo. You'll find that your rifle will have a sweet spot for some. My PSS LTR likes the 175 gr. Black Hills Moly, but my custom AI-AWP, likes the 168 gr. Federal Gold Medal, go figure :D

My cleaning procedure is fairly easy and I use this method regardless of the ammo I shoot.

1. one wet patch of kroil followed by one dry patch (x2)
2. short stroke one patch of JB or USP bore paste
3. dry patch until no more paste residue.
4. one wet patch of kroil then two drying patches.

After 20 rounds or so, I add a step of using Shooters Choice and Kroil mixed in a 3 to 1 ratio for copper fouling. Run 1 wet and 1 dry patch until no more copper fouling is lifted from the barrel.

If you're using the factory barrel, you'll find that it will clean very easily when broken-in with Moly.

You can actually try the break-in after short-stroking one patch of JB done 3 times (each time with a new patch of JB)

YMMV. Good luck and good shooting.
 
Two dissimilar metals + water = a battery.

Hey Redhook, In answer your question, "What did you mean buy stating that a barrel left uncleaned after firing is prone to pitting?" Anytime you get two different metals in close proximity to each other and water gets between them, you have a battery. The battery will begin transfering electrons from one metal to the other one and you end up with pits. Doesn't have to be the inside of a barrel, it can be anywhere.

The rate of transfer depends on the metals and the amount of water. You are correct that, "... you should clean right after shooting, ...". But, there is no way to give an accurate answer to, "... how long can they be left before doing any damage?" Too many variables concerning the amount of moisture in the air (Relative Humidity), the length of time it takes the moisture to actually get between the two metals, the actual barrel steel, etc.

Concerning, "I can think of a few guns I've left dirty for about a week or so, only because I didn't have the time right after." I think a lot of folks do the same thing and may never have a problem at all. (Or, perhaps it would be more accurate to say they don't have a problem that they are aware of.) Once the attitude is developed that it is OK to leave a firearm dirty for xxx amount of time, because it didn't get hurt when left uncleaned for xxdays, that will eventually catch up with those firearms.


And yes, I'm aware that a lot of folks believe they have to have a "fouled bore" in order to have a rifle shoot properly. Again though, this is a "Relative Term" and can mean different things to different people.

The confusion can be created because of a real honest to goodness Point of Impact shift between a cold, clean barrel and a fouled barrel, but how "large" is the shift? In some cases, they are really seeing nothing more than Random Group Dispersion which appears to be a Point of Impact shift. And if they would take the time to shoot 20-25 rounds at the exact same Target, the "Initial" shot might just be hidden within the composite group.

Let's say the initial shot was far enough outside the 20-25 shot group so that it was still a distinct and separate hole. In that situation, (I believe) they either have a barrel/rifle problem or a Load compatability problem.

Now, those last two paragraphs could cause debates into eternity about what a particular individual has experienced. A BenchRest shooter has a whole different set of criteria to deal with and their input on this subject can be misleading when taken out of context due to the "amount of shift" they are concerned about. But, Physics dictate the battery will do what it does and no amount of arguing can eliminate pits once they are in the barrel.

So, if you (or a police marksman, or anyone else) believe it is OK to leave your firearms dirty, I just DO NOT agree with that concept.


By the way, I looked at the links hk_cqb posted and they are excellent too.

Good hunting and clean 1-shot kills, Hot Core
 
I'd suggest that you go to varminthunters.com and see what those guys think. I shoot only moly through my Bushy Shorty and my varmint rifles. Only advantage that I see with moly is that you don't have to clean the barrel as frequently, before the groups start to open up. But, you do have to clean the barrel. Moly isn't permanent; it will come out of a barrel. It's important to get all the copper out of a barrel, prior to shooting moly through it. Otherwise, the moly will just lay in over the copper.

Ostensibly, moly will reduce throat erosion by around 50%. For sure, you get lower pressures with the same loads.
 
I agree with Walter about the cleaning as my match AR has 3000+ and going strong, cleaning has been alot easier.

As far as lower pressures go with moly, I lost velocity due to reduced friction and had to step up the powder charge to get needed velocity(back to square one on that). The only benefit to me has been, that I can fire a regional course(88 rounds), if not two before accuracy is affected. In practice I've shot up to 140 rounds without any noticable change in accuracy. I don't see, at this time, any advantages to increasing barrel life but on the other hand I have not experienced any of the negative effects others have reported either. Only time will tell.

I'm also considering using the Danzac product to replace moly, which does not build up like moly can. I'm still working out the particulars as no one in the two clubs I belong to uses it.

As an aside I belive Sinclair Intl. no longer offers moly due to some ill effects they have experienced; pitted bores under the moly layer.FWIW

Brian
 
The best answer is to try it yourself.

That's not skirting the issue, you just can't get the same answer from two different folks concerning moly coating. Gale McMillan (God rest his soul) voided his rifle's warranties if he knew moly-coated bullets were used. I heard about the Sinclair issue. In the meantime, Walt Berger, of Berger Bullets and benchrest fame, still stands by the moly-coated bullet and sells them. He also posts an excellent technique for properly cleaning a barrel after using moly on http://www.bergerbullets.com. George Vais chastised me on the phone (he's got a funny accent) for running moly through my Kreiger barrel. On the pro side, http://www.xtremeaccuracy.com has a full page concerning the myths and truths of the technique. In Precision Shooting, I've read articles by separate authors either deriding or praising moly. Sierra and Hornady still sell moly-coated bullets, ostensibly for the business ($) aspect, but they were talked into selling them on more than a whim.

Here's what I do know, from my own personal experience, about moly, after 4 years of loading 10,000+ moly-coated rounds in 24 different calibers:

1. My velocities dropped, I had to bump up the loads to get back to uncoated bullet velocities, validates the lower friction/pressure phenomenon.

2. Copper fouling in my 6.5-06 disappeared, even after 88 round matches. This gun has a 25" Kreiger barrel, mirror smooth inside, but 120gr Nosler Ballistic Tips squirting out over 3200fps still shed some jacket copper near the muzzle. Sierra MatchKings were even worse. After moly-coating said bullets, nary a problem.

3. You don't get something for nothing. You're simply substituting copper or lead or brass fouling for moly fouling. However, unlike copper, lead, or brass, molybdenum disulfide is considered an industrial lubricant, which is not a bad thing to leave in a location of high friction, kinda like PTFE in engine oil additives. Now if they could come up with a PTFE coating that withstands the faster rifle velocities, woohoo!!!

4. Clean bores, either via new barrels or old dark Cordite-fed military bores having been polished with JB Bore Paste or Pol, need about 5 rounds of the moly-coated fodder to settle down. If you clean the bore afterwards back to clean metal/white patches, you have to lay down moly once again to get the groups to settle down if you intend to use moly further.

5. Throat erosion using moly bullets has decreased compared to "naked" bullets. I noticed this especially in my M14NM with medium weight match barrel, and the above 6.5-06. Dunno if it's the lower friction, or the moly conducting heat away from the leade, but it's a factor. It makes me happy, more rounds can go downrange and still group decently before I have to either rebarrel or set things back a thread and rechamber. Kreiger, Obermeyer, Rock, and Douglas premium barrels ain't cheap, so the moly is a bit of an investment.

6. Pitted, cratered, dark, or frosty bores from old warhorses and commercial arms, like my 7.62x45 Czech VZ-52, 8mm 1917 Amberg Gew98, .30-30 Savage 340, or .303 No5Mk1 Jungle Carbine, appreciate the paving over of the bore imperfections when moly-coated ammo is used. The point of impact shifted, but the copper fouling again decreased, and the groups didn't open up after 20 or 40 rounds as earlier when the potholes filled with copper. Cleanup afterwards was a good bit easier. On a couple of the warhorses, the grouping actually shrank some, I'm assuming a better-fitting bullet. On the autoloader VZ-52, the brass ejected to a different location, probably because the pressure curve had changed.

7. Accuracy in good barrels hasn't really changed much, if it shot well with naked bullets, it still shoots just as well with moly-coated fodder. It did prevent groups from opening up due to copper fouling.

8. Moly coating cast or swaged lead bullets didn't do a whole lot for leading or accuracy, at least in my tests with .38 Special and .45 ACP. Cleaning the leading was a bit easier, though.

9. Too much moly and the bullets look like hell, and leave excess powder on the feed ramps, chamber mouths, etc. I've seen some folks even experience misfires because there was a moly buildup so heavy in their chambers the rounds wouldn't seat properly. But that's a technique thing, you don't need to cake the stuff on, just a thin impact plating and wiping off any excess with a clean towel will do.

10. No increase in pitting or corrosion in either the smooth, shiny barrels or the old warhorses. And when you've got money sunk into premium barrels and nice guns, and you live in hot, humid, salty, East Coast Central Florida, you look for corrosion on a religious basis. In fact, my Remington 700PSS in .308 has seen nothing but moly-coated 168gr Sierra MatchKings since the day I bought it new.

11. In gas autoloaders with pistons, like my Bulgarian SLR-95 (AK clone), as well as my Garand, M14NM, BAR, and VZ-52, the moly does find it's way to the face of the gas pistons, and even the gas cylinder. So if you're insistent on cleaning up the moly afterwards, don't forget those parts.


I'm in the process of assembling a 6.5-300 Weatherby Magnum, on a Sako action, 1-8" twist barrel, for 155gr Sierra MatchKings. Will I moly coat those bullets? You betcha! Unless something better comes along to prevent me from chewing up a decent barrel in less than 1000 rounds.

Differential metals, with moisture of a proper pH or acid between them, do indeed constitute a battery via electrolysis. The rate of electrolysis depends on the strength of the acid, the two metals' conductivity, surface area, etc. However, I'd be no more worried about the battery etching effect of moly on a bore than I would a layer of lead or copper plating, aka fouling, which would also produce that effect by virtue of the chemistry involved.

The sulfur in the disulfide component of molybdenum disulfide is not as easily liberated as some folks would have one believe. If you leave or allow enough moisture in a bore for long enough, moly or not, you're gonna get pitting. Moly does not provide an excuse to just stop cleaning, especially in environments that are conducive to corrosion. But you don't need to remove the moly to inhibit corrosion, just clean the bore properly via the Kroil technique listed above at Walt Berger's site.

Or, if you try it and you decide it isn't for you, you can indeed clean out the moly and go back to naked bullets, no harm done. I'm not really a poster child for the technique, I just wanted to see what all the hype was about and ended up finding some real benefits. But my Cheerios still get soggy after a while in milk, the moly hasn't done a darned thing for them. ;)
 
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