I got this shotgun from my grandmother in 1983. She said it had been in the family for many years. She thought it was around a 100 years old when she gave it to me. Does anyone know much about these and would it be safe to shoot maybe with brass shells and black powder?
shooting Hopkins & Allen shotgun
- Thread starter Hdonly
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mapsjanhere
New member
Going by the striping pattern on the barrel it's a welded Damascus steel barrel, and the general opinion is "don't". You could probably come up with some low pressure round that's probably safe to shoot, but there's just no guarantee.
Don't see a picture with striping pattern on the barrel, but (and despite what you'll see on assorted forums to the contrary. Mostly "I've done it."), if it's Damascus, it's not safe to shoot with any ammo.
Has to do with the BP salts from the original loads having gotten into the wee tiny cracks and fissures in the joints causing rusting.
Has to do with the BP salts from the original loads having gotten into the wee tiny cracks and fissures in the joints causing rusting.
Bill DeShivs
New member
The barrels are damascus steel.
Don't shoot it-even with black powder loads.
It's a wall-hanger.
Don't shoot it-even with black powder loads.
It's a wall-hanger.
I was looking at some of those barrel inserts last night. There is a guy that makes them for some pistol and rifle cartridges also. Was kinda thinking about maybe .38 special and 20 gauge. It would be nice to be able to shoot it. The .38 has about a 10" barrel. The shotgun inserts are shorter. I think I will do some more searching along those lines.
Short lane has 8" rifled adapters with o rings to stabilize and stop fouling from getting back to the breech, and short lane always has free shipping, and sales going on. Solid stainless steel too. Some others are aluminum with a steel barrel liner, and some are just aluminum. Check them out. Especially the PATHFINDER series. Put PATHFINDER in the discount field and get an additional 15% off (at least that used to work...www.gunadapters.com
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Well, it is true that a lot of people shoot old guns and not all of them blow up.
The trouble is that neither FITASC nor any gunsmith can determine if or when an old "Damascus" gun might let go. I have been told that all English guns were proof tested and that therefore can never blow up. Never! Sure.
Others claim that if Damascus barrel guns were maintained properly, they never blow up. Never! Sure.
And the same litany for different types of barrels (plain "twist" will blow up; "London Twist" can handle any overload). Sure.
No matter what anyone, or any expert, with or without a British accent, says, those old barrels can and do blow. Even when a barrel that has been re-proved, it only means that the barrel didn't blow with that load at that time. The next shot may do the job.
The best advice I can give on "Damascus" barrel shotguns is to NOT fire them at all. Any of them. Ever. With any load, even light black powder loads.
Jim
The trouble is that neither FITASC nor any gunsmith can determine if or when an old "Damascus" gun might let go. I have been told that all English guns were proof tested and that therefore can never blow up. Never! Sure.
Others claim that if Damascus barrel guns were maintained properly, they never blow up. Never! Sure.
And the same litany for different types of barrels (plain "twist" will blow up; "London Twist" can handle any overload). Sure.
No matter what anyone, or any expert, with or without a British accent, says, those old barrels can and do blow. Even when a barrel that has been re-proved, it only means that the barrel didn't blow with that load at that time. The next shot may do the job.
The best advice I can give on "Damascus" barrel shotguns is to NOT fire them at all. Any of them. Ever. With any load, even light black powder loads.
Jim
Recently I was re reading my American Rifleman magazines from the 1950's and a very good long explanation was given, exactly down the lines of what what James K has said. Not to fire them at all.
These barrels were made of twisted wire wrapped around a mandrel. The wire was mild steel and iron. Structural integrity depends on the material and the welds and the first was not very good and the second is unlikely to be very good either. I really doubt there is a nitro proof on those barrels as most were blackpowder.
People who feel invincible will do whatever they want. But I for one consider my hands, my eyes, and my health worth more than some old shotgun.
An insert makes the story different, because the pressure is contained by the insert, not by the original barrel. Some folks have had custom made liners (usually of a smaller gauge) permanently inserted in old guns, thus preserving the outer shell (with its colorful Damascus appearance) but not depending on it for strength. But that is something that is done by a very few specialists and can cost hundreds if not thousands of dollars (and is not always possible in any case). It is not cost effective for 99 percent of the older guns.
For most folks, the most reasonable answer is consign the old gun to an honorable retirement and buy a modern gun for day-to-day use.
Hi, Slamfire,
Actually some of those barrels did originally pass nitro proof. The problem is that the barrel, no matter how good it looks or what proof tests it might have once passed, is a mass of welds held together by hope and good wishes. As each shell was fired, the corrosive compound from the primer plus the erosion of the burning powder ate its way into the interior of the metal spreading through all the tiny channels inside the barrel metal. That is why no one (and I mean no one) can look at a Damascus type barrel and decree that it is solid and safe. There might be magnetic tests or x-rays that can detect excessive weakness but there is a point at which the only "proof" that a barrel will fire a certain load is to fire that load and see if the barrel blows; and then nothing has been proven about the next load.
Some folks tout "re-proving" as the solution. But if you submit a nice old gun to be re-proved, and it blows, you are left with a mass of junk - safe, but junk. I would rather retire an old gun to the wall than be left with scrap iron.
Jim
For most folks, the most reasonable answer is consign the old gun to an honorable retirement and buy a modern gun for day-to-day use.
Hi, Slamfire,
Actually some of those barrels did originally pass nitro proof. The problem is that the barrel, no matter how good it looks or what proof tests it might have once passed, is a mass of welds held together by hope and good wishes. As each shell was fired, the corrosive compound from the primer plus the erosion of the burning powder ate its way into the interior of the metal spreading through all the tiny channels inside the barrel metal. That is why no one (and I mean no one) can look at a Damascus type barrel and decree that it is solid and safe. There might be magnetic tests or x-rays that can detect excessive weakness but there is a point at which the only "proof" that a barrel will fire a certain load is to fire that load and see if the barrel blows; and then nothing has been proven about the next load.
Some folks tout "re-proving" as the solution. But if you submit a nice old gun to be re-proved, and it blows, you are left with a mass of junk - safe, but junk. I would rather retire an old gun to the wall than be left with scrap iron.
Jim
There are a lot of adapters to choose from. For some cheap shooting fun, I am thinking a pair of 9mm adapters for $60. Or maybe one 9mm and one .45 acp. Or one 9mm and one .410/.45 LC. Three different rounds. Wow. decisions, decisions. Only problem is, the only ones that are rifled are the extended 8" rifled adapters at $99 apiece. Or they have a mid length .38 special 5" rifled adapter at $64.99. Oh I forgot to mention the 209 black powder adapters. at $30.
I would opt for shotgun tubes as their pressures are lower and no need for rifling to make metallic work.
Sleeving can be done to keep the same gauge, but it is expensive.
The cost can never be justified with old guns like these, just the enjoyment from shooting a family heirloom. That's your decision to make
Enjoy it no matter what you decide!
Sleeving can be done to keep the same gauge, but it is expensive.
The cost can never be justified with old guns like these, just the enjoyment from shooting a family heirloom. That's your decision to make
Enjoy it no matter what you decide!
noelf2, I got two of Short Lane's adapters. Got one for .38 special and one for .45 acp. They came in yesterday evening. I plan on getting out today and try them out. They are well built, good machine work. Got the Bug Out series at 5" long. The long ones were more than I wanted to spend. For fun shooting, I couldn't justify the extra expense of the long ones at only 3" longer. They fit extremely well and are fairly easy to remove. Can't wait for the sun to come up this morning and try them out. If they appear accurate enough, I will be adding some type of front and rear sight. Since this shotgun is really not a collector, I don't mind the little bit of drilling needed to mount some sights. Will be great to be able to use this fine old family gun. My daughter is an avid shooter, so she gets it after I am gone. Keeping it in the family for another 100+ years. Thanks all for the good information.
Personally I wouldn't add sights to a keepsake. These adapters are not going to give you the accuracy that a fixed barrel would anyway. Out of a shotgun, with bead sight only, you should be able to hit rabbit sized targets at 25 yards. Will take some practice. I got adapters for a bug out setup I wanted to build. In it is the 8" Pathfinder 45lc adapter, but stuffed in the stock and fore-grip are several more adapters, ammo, fishing gear, fire starter, etc... Still, even with the red/green dot sight, 30 yards is about all it's good for with rifled adapters.
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Good point on sight mounting on it. I didn't expect a tack driver anyway. My shooting plans this morning have been changed by Mother Nature and her rain. Maybe later this afternoon. I will do some shooting before worrying about sights. I have a milling machine. I could easily make a red dot mount that would clamp on and not have to do any drilling. Of course a red dot sight on a 100 year old shotgun would look quite out of place. It's only going to be a fun gun anyway.