Shooting high left

S

siggygirl

New member
Hi all, back to ask a technical question. I discovered the world of pie charts and my particular shooting issues in the last few weeks. Judging from where my shots are landing, mostly high left, I think I've got a flinch. I see this fairly consistently in draw/point/shoot til mag is empty with both hands. I haven't had much training yet in defensive shooting so I don't even know if these types of exercises are the best to be doing. I'm right handed, right eye dominant (now that vision is corrected with awesome Rudy shooting glasses).

I do feel more amped up when I'm shooting in this style and I can feel myself backing away from the gun a bit. Instead of focusing on trigger pull (which prevents anticipation recoil for me) in point and shoot, it looks like I'm flinching. With just typical low pressure range shooting, I don't see this pattern with this gun or any others.

Does this make sense? And if so, what's the best way to get rid of that ASAP? Dry fire? If so, should I use a snap cap? I'm working with my Sig P232 380 for this. I want to maximize my time in training so I'm a bit concerned going into a weekend class with this going on. Thanks for your help.
 
The problem you are having makes perfect sense. Anticipating the recoil can make a right handed shooter hit to the left, when you add drawing into the equation you will encounter problems yoiu may not have during slow fire exercises.
How far left and at what distance?
 
Hi Bill. I'm shooting at about fifteen feet from the target. The first two or three in the mag are going about 6 inches high and left. Then it gets worse. By the seventh, it's off the paper so who knows how far off I am. It started after several FTEs on the second round of the mag of my Sig P230. I didn't want to rapid fire when the gun wasn't firing properly. No problems with the 232 with FTEs but it kind of lurked in the back of my head as a potentially "dangerous issue" whether or not that is true. Strangely, single handed fire under the same circumstances is much better. Can't figure out why that would be.
 
Assuming you are right handed...

... and you don't pull left and up when shooting single-handed...

... it sounds to me more like you are flinching or pulling too much with your support hand.
 
If your single handed fire is better you are probably overgripping with your support hand.
The FTE's would worry me a bit more. I never shot a Sig but between their reputation and their price I would expect them to function flawlessly.
I was going to ask if you might be limp wristing a bit, but I don't think thats possible if you are overgripping with your support hand.???
Carry your 232 until you get to the bottom of your problem. I'm sure someone will chime in with some good suggestions.
By the way, did you try more than one type of ammo?
 
Things you might try

Caveat: I'm not an instructor. I've taught a bunch of new shooters, but it's my hobby, not my profession.

Caveat2: Take any advice from the internet with a serious grain of salt.

That said -

IMO, if you are doing what I think you are doing, there are some things you can do to mitigate the problem.

1) Relax your support hand. There should be some tension (push the pistol hand into the support hand, pull the support hand into the pistol hand), but not enough to make your arms tire or shake.

2) Relax your pistol hand. Keep a good grip, but don't grip so hard that your knuckles start to turn white.

3) Work on "follow-through." Focus on your front sight, and try to just keep it on the target. Don't think about pulling, pushing, or anything else, just keep that sight on the target. (Note: similar to following through your shot with a cue stick, if you shoot pool.)

4) Try not to anticipate the recoil. (Note: this can be helped immensely through extended dry-fire practice.)

Good luck,

M
 
all of these posts are good. I had a similar left shooting problem that a good friend (also firearms instructor) told me to place my finger on the trigger differently. I was putting the trigger in the first crease of my first knuckle. He advised trying to place the tip of my finger on trigger and watch front sight and focus on pulling trigger finger towards my chest. I am no marksman but this helped my shooting alot. good luck!
 
Have a friend load your magazine/cylinder whatever. Replace 2 of the live rounds being loaded with dummies or snap caps. Have the friend place the dummies in at random spots and not tell you where they are. When you start shooting and run into a dummie you will see exactly what you are doing, a flinch will be very obvious.
 
I bought a cheap laser (like $30 from ebay). My glock doesn't mind dry firing but I'd recommend buying some snap caps for your Siggy. Face a wall, mebbe 10 ft out, and draw and pull with the laser on (please use the snap caps, not live ammunition :rolleyes:). Focus on the dot and watch it move. You will see your flinch on the pull. Try try again till you can get rid of the flinch, then do it till its second nature. I like to zero my laser, and focus on different parts of the wall and just point and squeeze. Hope this helps you.
 
All of this is helpful. I'll pick up some snap caps and consider the laser. I'll be dry firing quite a bit. I'd appreciate an explanation of "heeling." I've seen that term before but I'm not sure I understand what it means.
 
...I'm shooting at about fifteen feet from the target. The first two or three in the mag are going about 6 inches high and left. Then it gets worse. By the seventh, it's off the paper so who knows how far off I am...
Click to expand...
If you are so far off the mark at 5-yard, you should ask someone more experienced to just watch you shoot. I'd image you are doing something obviously wrong.

...I'll ... consider the laser...
Click to expand...
Don't bother with the laser. Your focus is the front sight. You should let the rear sight and target go blurry. If you flinch, you'll know it.
 
I agree with you acpie, nothing beats real practice with live ammo, at the range. I just find I can practice at home with the laser much easier. I used it extensively to smooth my trigger pull, on the couch watching the idiotbox. It also really helped improve "pointing" the gun, and shooting without sights. I don't take it to the range or plinking: its just a teaching aid.
 
Siggygirl, be sure that you are wearing good hearing protection. You could try ear plugs and ear muffs over them. It's the noise that can cause anticipate the gun firing and thus heeling. Also the trigger tripping the sear should be a suprise. Good Shooting, I'm confident you'll figure it out. Lyle

If you can't shoot faster than the other guy ; Shoot straighter. Chic Gaylord
 
statureman's RX for flinching

for shooting you want to focus your attention on the front site. Using a laser to determine how you are pulling when you fire is good but can create bad habits it used to much.

I think if you get a partner to help you watch the laser movement as you fire live ammo. watch how it moves, this is the only to see that the gun is doing if/when you are actually flinching. once you get the feel for what you are doing wrong switch to snap caps. Now you can determine where your flinch ends and a poor trigger pull begins. watch the laser to get a feel for how you should pull the trigger to make the laser to move from center the least (no movement is impossible and is not a realistic goal).

Next, while using your partner to watch the laser while dry firing incorporate the correct trigger feel you have developed using the laser and watch your front site move. Now you are both feeling the correct trigger pull and seeing how it affects your front site, which is key to proper trigger manipulation in a live fire situation. Once you have successfully transferred what the large movements in the laser look like (from the perspective of your training partner) you can see how your from site is creating these movement. Get that down and drop the laser focus on recreating the correct site picture/front site focus and dry fire until you can do it in your sleep.

Only now, go back to live fire, if you start flinching again you have a base established for what your trigger pull should be, you have isolated the sound induced flinch and can work on that.

I recommend plugs with muffs over them. if you have the budget get electronic muffs, they amplify speech and stop loud noise.
 
Have a friend load your magazine/cylinder whatever. Replace 2 of the live rounds being loaded with dummies or snap caps. Have the friend place the dummies in at random spots and not tell you where they are. When you start shooting and run into a dummie you will see exactly what you are doing, a flinch will be very obvious.
Click to expand...

This is exactly how any range instructor "fix's" shooters with flinching or fire anticipation problems.

Very good way to find your flaws.
 
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