Shooting British 455 Webley Cartridges in a Shaved Webley MK VI Revolver

duelist1954

New member
Recently I bought what was advertised as an un-altered .455 Webley MK VI revolver. As you may know, most Webley MK VI revolvers in the U.S.A. have had the backs of their cylinders shaved so they can fire .45 ACP rounds mounted in moon clips.

As it turned out my supposedly unaltered Webley had been shaved. But I was still able to shoot proper .455 Webley cartridges in it, and I'll show you how I did it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=riBaoXjzrj4
 
Good job on the video. I've always thought the Webley was a beautiful revolver. In general, how are their trigger pulls? And do they "loosen up" with a lot of shooting?
 
The trigger on this one is really good. The gun has had over 90 years of shooting already, so I doubt that the rounds I put through it will wear it in any more than it already is. :)
 
The work done to the Webleys is interesting in its variation. As you have found, some guns that look unshaved have been shaved. It just seems to depend on the individual gunsmith that did the work.

I have a 1917 mk VI, that is just "barely" shaved. IT will NOT work with .45AR cases, the rims are too thick and the cylinder binds. IT will not work with full moon clips (they are too thick). it does work with S&W half moon (3rnd) clips. And it does work with some two round (quarter moon?) clips I found, although I have no idea who made them, or where one could find any today.

I did try 6 shots with .455 ammo, 5 fired, 3 pierced primers. Clearly a no go situation. I was going to shorten some Schoefield brass to see if it would work (the rim thickness might be about right), but that project has been on hold way too long, and it wouldn't do anything for letting me shoot actual .455 Webley ammo, just give me a source for brass that didn't need to use clips.

Lots of Webleys have survived generations of casual shooting with factory .45acp ammo. Many have not. Basically factory ball .45auto is a proof level pressure load for the old Webley. One can maybe get away with it for a while, but its a very poor idea. With no prior warning, the next time you pull the trigger on a Webley with a .45 auto factory load (or equal handload) might be the last time you ever pull the trigger on that Webley again!

When supplies of original ammo dried up, shaving the guns so they could use .45 auto BRASS in handloads was a good way to keep the guns shootable. But too many people only knew it took .45 auto ammo, and so we have a lot fewer Webleys around today.
 
When those guns were sold off by the British defense ministry, there were no clips other than the 3-round half moon clips made for the U.S. Model 1917 revolvers (Colt and S&W). Full moon clips had not been invented yet. And there was almost no surplus .455 ammunition available. Unlike .45 ACP, which was made and issued in huge quantities, .455 was issued only to users of revolvers in that caliber, and only 12 rounds at a time. I have heard that at times, it was not available at all, and British officers carried empty revolvers into combat.

In any case, with almost no ammunition available in the U.S., importers had the guns altered either before sale or, in some cases, in England before the guns were even imported to the U.S.

The work was not done by gunsmiths in the States, it was a mass production operation, whether done here or in the U.K. And it was not done when users ran out of .455; there was never much .455 in the first place.

Jim
 
Quite inventive, but it seems it would be almost easier to machine a disk of mild steel. Of course you'd need the proper set up to do so, but I'd think that someone with a bit of skill with a drill press could get it done.
 
James, I bow to your knowledge on this. I just always figured that since some guns I have seen are "shaved" more than others, that it was individual smiths. But having the guns shaved in batches (possibly by different firms?) and at different times would also explain the variations.

I do know that there were at least some unshaved guns and .455 ammo imported and sold back in the 50s, as I have ads for them in old American Rifleman issues.

I did know about the English only issuing 12 rnds at a time. When it comes to ammo for the troops, the Crown has always been ....frugal.

I can also see British officers going into combat with empty revolvers. After all, if they had wasted what the Crown provided for ammo (either in practice or using it to save their own, or someone else's life) they still had a duty to perform. And officers are expected to lead, not fight, anyway....:rolleyes:

I believe that an American officer would also do their duty, and would go into combat carrying an empty handgun, if no ammo was available. I also believe that an American officer who did this would be carrying something else, that was loaded, as well. I know I wouldn't hesitate a moment, if I was in that situation. But a British office, a century ago? Quite plausible they might not. Bad form, old chap. Against regulations, don't you know?

Late 19th century militaries were commonly stingy about issuing ammo to their troops, and particularly those with colonial empires. Ammo was valuable, and almost never given to troops in garrison (small amount for guards, only), because of the simple fact that outside of the practice range or actual operations, ammo in the troops hands tended to disappear, since it was one of the few military items that could be sold, or traded for drink, food, or other "recreational" activities.

And since rules are rules, there was a strong tendency to continue to keep bulk ammo under watchful eyes of the quartermasters, even when the troops were in the field. A fairly good, but subtle, example is in the movie ZULU.

While flawed in some ways (most notable is the apparently unavoidable use of more modern arms (SMLEs) to supplement the numbers of Martini's in some scenes), Zulu does do a good job of showing some of the attitudes and tactics of the times. A lot of it is lost on viewers who don't have an interest or background in the history of the times, but it is there for those who can see it.

A fairly large group of British were overwhelmed and wiped out by the Zulus, primarily because they faced a much larger number of Zulus, in open country, and their officers fought "by the book". At Roarke's Drift, a much smaller number of men were able to hold off the attack, primarily because the officer who wound up in charge was able to both think, and act (in today's parlance) "outside the box". Fortifying and fighting from the station, as well as a complete disregard for the regulations about ammo issuance added greatly to their ability to fight, and ultimately win.
 
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