Shooting a bullet into the air
- Thread starter FUD
- Start date
There's a video I've seen of a wedding in the Middle East somewhere where the groom's family celebrates by shooting AKs into the air. Then they commence dancing the traditional wedding dance. Then the wedding guests commence falling to the ground dead.
What goes up must come down. Not reccomended.
What goes up must come down. Not reccomended.
A bullet rising into the air is storing kinetic energy as it rises. At the top of its arc, when the bullet speed is zero, this energy is at its maximum. Depending on the weight of the load, a bullet fired at 1000fps can rise to 5,000 feet in a few seconds.
Thereafter, gravity pulls the bullet back to earth faster and faster until the bullet reaches its terminal velocity (the fastest speed at which it can fall in air), or strikes an object or person. The bullet will not float down like a feather because it is heavy and designed to cut through air as fast as possible.
On another thread, a poster described the holes that resulted in his metal roof when his neighbors fired rifles into the air.
That is why we shoot them into watermelons instead.
Thereafter, gravity pulls the bullet back to earth faster and faster until the bullet reaches its terminal velocity (the fastest speed at which it can fall in air), or strikes an object or person. The bullet will not float down like a feather because it is heavy and designed to cut through air as fast as possible.
On another thread, a poster described the holes that resulted in his metal roof when his neighbors fired rifles into the air.
That is why we shoot them into watermelons instead.
Sure it's safe, if you're on a boat way out on the ocean or maybe in the middle of the Sahara. Otherwise, no.
I saw a news story just a few weeks ago about a young man who had a bullet in his brain. He seemed to be ok, but the docs didn't want to remove the bullet because the operation would be worse than leaving it where it was. It happened in one of those "let's celebrate New Year's by shooting our guns in the air" countries. The story also went into the ballistics of doing this. They estimated the terminal velocity at around 180 mph. And they said the bullet usually comes back down base first due to the spin which doesn't slow down a lot and therefore the bullet acts like a gyroscope and doesn't turn over. Makes sense. So the relatively slow vel. and the flat base make them just a little less deadly than they could be. But they can still cause a lot of damage to people/animals/property.
I saw a news story just a few weeks ago about a young man who had a bullet in his brain. He seemed to be ok, but the docs didn't want to remove the bullet because the operation would be worse than leaving it where it was. It happened in one of those "let's celebrate New Year's by shooting our guns in the air" countries. The story also went into the ballistics of doing this. They estimated the terminal velocity at around 180 mph. And they said the bullet usually comes back down base first due to the spin which doesn't slow down a lot and therefore the bullet acts like a gyroscope and doesn't turn over. Makes sense. So the relatively slow vel. and the flat base make them just a little less deadly than they could be. But they can still cause a lot of damage to people/animals/property.
TheBluesMan
Moderator Emeritus
From Fr. Frog’s Homepage.
Q. What happens when a bullet is fired straight up?
A. A lot of shooters have wondered what happens when a bullet is fired vertically. Popular lore includes such mis-ideas as the bullet burns up falling back down, it comes down at the same velocity as its original muzzle velocity, and probably one that says it disappears in a time warp.
The two best references on the subject are "Hatcher's Notebook", (by Julian S. Hatcher, 3rd edition, June 1962, Stackpole Books, ISBN: 0811707954) which includes a chapter on bullets fired vertically, and an article titled "Terminal Velocity and Penetration Studies," by Lucien C. Haag, which appeared in Vol 2, No. 1 of Wound Ballistics Review. This information is excerpted from both.
First, it must be understood that recovering vertically fired bullets is difficult because wind causes them to drift from the expected vertical line. (This probably accounts for many of the myths.)
Hatcher's tests indicated that on the average, vertically fired rifle bullets reach about 9000 feet in altitude (slowed from their muzzle velocity by air drag and gravity to zero velocity), taking about 20 seconds to reach maximum height. Then, pulled by gravity, and slowed by air drag they take about 40 or so seconds to return. Bullets fired vertically come back base first. Why? Read on!
Hatcher describes one experiment with the 150gr M2 Ball bullet fired vertically. When it came back from vertical (round trip time was about 42.9 seconds) it left only a 1/16 inch dent in a soft pine board that it happened to hit. (Not exactly what it would do at 2700f/s, eh?) Based upon this and similar tests Hatcher concluded that the impact velocity was about 300 f/s, which from additional testing appears to be the terminal velocity (the maximum free fall velocity which is limited by air drag on the body in question) of that bullet falling from any height in the atmosphere. (If I remember correctly from my limited parachuting experience the terminal velocity of a falling person is somewhere around 130 mph or about 200 f/s.)
What does not substantially change, even at extreme range, is the rotational speed of the bullet that was imparted by the rifling (around 300k rpm) since the effect of air drag on the rotational velocity in negligible. Thus the gyroscopic action, once the projectile is stabilized, tends to keep the bullet oriented in the same direction, thus the base first (well ok, original position trailing end) return. It is interesting that this was not commonly known until just before WWII. The British had lots of dud antiaircraft rounds that all came back base down, or more correctly oriented to the same elevation as shot from the gun. BTW, this is what raises hob with traditional long range small arms ballistics. With lots of elevation on the bore (past 2,000+ or so yards) at the far end the bullet is actually falling sideways and all frontal air drag algorithms are out the window.
Interestingly, Hatcher describes an experiment that shows the gyroscopic stability at work. They loaded the 150gr M2 flat based bullet backwards and found that the round trip time was a bit shorter (about 30.4 seconds) due to the bullet being "streamlined (point down) on the return trip. The drag on the upward trip was not as greatly effected due to the high muzzle velocity. No estimated impact velocity was given but it would have been somewhat higher due to the lower air drag on the bullet since it was coming down point first.
The Haag article used a ballistics computation program to calculate vertically fired bullet performance and came up with results comparable with Hatcher's work. Using bullets ranging from the .22 rim fire to the 180gr .30 caliber spitzer in the .30-06 the time of flight (up & back) ranged from a low of 25 seconds for the .25ACP to a long of 77 seconds for the M193 ball. Maximum altitudes ranged from a low of 2288 feet for the .25ACP to a high of 10,103 feet for the 180gr .30-06. Terminal velocities ranged from 134 f/s for a tumbling .22 Short to a high of 323 f/s for the 180gr .30-06.
Haag calculated the performance of the .30cal 150gr M2 ball round fired by Hatcher as a maximum altitude of 9330 feet and a round trip time of 57 seconds which is, for all intents and purposes, the same as Hatcher's observations.
As a point of interest a velocity of about between 160 and 200 f/s (±) is needed to penetrate skin. However, one could still be seriously injured if struck by a falling bullet.
Those interested in learning more about vertically fired bullets may want to obtain a copies of Hatcher's Notebook and the Haag article.
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RKBA!
"The people have the right to bear arms for their defense and security"
Ohio Constitution, Article I, Section 4 Concealed Carry is illegal in Ohio.
Ohioans for Concealed Carry Website
Q. What happens when a bullet is fired straight up?
A. A lot of shooters have wondered what happens when a bullet is fired vertically. Popular lore includes such mis-ideas as the bullet burns up falling back down, it comes down at the same velocity as its original muzzle velocity, and probably one that says it disappears in a time warp.
The two best references on the subject are "Hatcher's Notebook", (by Julian S. Hatcher, 3rd edition, June 1962, Stackpole Books, ISBN: 0811707954) which includes a chapter on bullets fired vertically, and an article titled "Terminal Velocity and Penetration Studies," by Lucien C. Haag, which appeared in Vol 2, No. 1 of Wound Ballistics Review. This information is excerpted from both.
First, it must be understood that recovering vertically fired bullets is difficult because wind causes them to drift from the expected vertical line. (This probably accounts for many of the myths.)
Hatcher's tests indicated that on the average, vertically fired rifle bullets reach about 9000 feet in altitude (slowed from their muzzle velocity by air drag and gravity to zero velocity), taking about 20 seconds to reach maximum height. Then, pulled by gravity, and slowed by air drag they take about 40 or so seconds to return. Bullets fired vertically come back base first. Why? Read on!
Hatcher describes one experiment with the 150gr M2 Ball bullet fired vertically. When it came back from vertical (round trip time was about 42.9 seconds) it left only a 1/16 inch dent in a soft pine board that it happened to hit. (Not exactly what it would do at 2700f/s, eh?) Based upon this and similar tests Hatcher concluded that the impact velocity was about 300 f/s, which from additional testing appears to be the terminal velocity (the maximum free fall velocity which is limited by air drag on the body in question) of that bullet falling from any height in the atmosphere. (If I remember correctly from my limited parachuting experience the terminal velocity of a falling person is somewhere around 130 mph or about 200 f/s.)
What does not substantially change, even at extreme range, is the rotational speed of the bullet that was imparted by the rifling (around 300k rpm) since the effect of air drag on the rotational velocity in negligible. Thus the gyroscopic action, once the projectile is stabilized, tends to keep the bullet oriented in the same direction, thus the base first (well ok, original position trailing end) return. It is interesting that this was not commonly known until just before WWII. The British had lots of dud antiaircraft rounds that all came back base down, or more correctly oriented to the same elevation as shot from the gun. BTW, this is what raises hob with traditional long range small arms ballistics. With lots of elevation on the bore (past 2,000+ or so yards) at the far end the bullet is actually falling sideways and all frontal air drag algorithms are out the window.
Interestingly, Hatcher describes an experiment that shows the gyroscopic stability at work. They loaded the 150gr M2 flat based bullet backwards and found that the round trip time was a bit shorter (about 30.4 seconds) due to the bullet being "streamlined (point down) on the return trip. The drag on the upward trip was not as greatly effected due to the high muzzle velocity. No estimated impact velocity was given but it would have been somewhat higher due to the lower air drag on the bullet since it was coming down point first.
The Haag article used a ballistics computation program to calculate vertically fired bullet performance and came up with results comparable with Hatcher's work. Using bullets ranging from the .22 rim fire to the 180gr .30 caliber spitzer in the .30-06 the time of flight (up & back) ranged from a low of 25 seconds for the .25ACP to a long of 77 seconds for the M193 ball. Maximum altitudes ranged from a low of 2288 feet for the .25ACP to a high of 10,103 feet for the 180gr .30-06. Terminal velocities ranged from 134 f/s for a tumbling .22 Short to a high of 323 f/s for the 180gr .30-06.
Haag calculated the performance of the .30cal 150gr M2 ball round fired by Hatcher as a maximum altitude of 9330 feet and a round trip time of 57 seconds which is, for all intents and purposes, the same as Hatcher's observations.
As a point of interest a velocity of about between 160 and 200 f/s (±) is needed to penetrate skin. However, one could still be seriously injured if struck by a falling bullet.
Those interested in learning more about vertically fired bullets may want to obtain a copies of Hatcher's Notebook and the Haag article.
------------------
RKBA!
"The people have the right to bear arms for their defense and security"
Ohio Constitution, Article I, Section 4 Concealed Carry is illegal in Ohio.
Ohioans for Concealed Carry Website
bullseyekp
New member
I was at a track meet in high school and something hit a girl in the head while she was in the shot ring. She was wheeled away on a stretcher with a bullet lodged in her skull. A police report in the next day's paper said it resulted from someone firing a 9mm into the air.
Also, a couple of businesses less than a mile away from a local indoor range reported bullets striking their buildings after some idiots put more than few rounds through the tin roof.
That section of the range has since been destroyed.
Answer: No.
[This message has been edited by KP95OKC (edited May 24, 2000).]
Also, a couple of businesses less than a mile away from a local indoor range reported bullets striking their buildings after some idiots put more than few rounds through the tin roof.
That section of the range has since been destroyed.Answer: No.
[This message has been edited by KP95OKC (edited May 24, 2000).]
A man was milling in the crowd at an Aspen music and art festival. He suddenly fell over, stone dead. The autopsy discovered a bullet lodged in his head. Police discovered that a teenager almost two miles away had shot into the air, thinking it safe. He was wrong, and a man miles away was dead.
MountainGun44
New member
Very interesting. Great info.
From now on I will fire my AK into the ground at wedding celebrations. Just to be safe.
From now on I will fire my AK into the ground at wedding celebrations. Just to be safe.
My father was in the Navy during the early '60s in aviaton ordnance. One time, a fighter was engaged in aerial gunnery drills against a towed target. The pilot engaged the target with his 20 mm cannons while climbing. After hitting the target, he leveled off. A few seconds later, he started taking fire and bailed out. You guessed it: the only weapons fired in the area were his own and he'd shot himself down. A real 1 in a trillion chance but it happened. After that, they banned firing while in a climb during practice.
It's dangerous. People are hurt all the time by falling bullets, even little .22 ones, esp. in latino communities where a part of the culture on 4th of July/Cinco de mayo/new years, etc., is to shoot into the air. Every time I see Saddam Hussein and Castro shooting a military rifle into the air in front of a big crowd, I wonder if and who gets hit by the bullet on the way down.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Ledbetter:
Depending on the weight of the load, a bullet fired at 1000fps can rise to 5,000 feet in a few seconds.
Thereafter, gravity pulls the bullet back to earth faster and faster until the bullet reaches its terminal velocity (the fastest speed at which it can fall in air), or strikes an object or person. The bullet will not float down like a feather because it is heavy and designed to cut through air as fast as possible.[/quote]
Seems like I remember (hard to do these days)
30 feet per second per second in a vacuum.
I wouldn't want to be under one (or even two for that matter) - I have enough headaches (no pun) dodging the recent two hail drops we've had in two weeks.
You shoot - I'll chat with you in a 1/2-hour or so.
AB
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2nd AMENdment - "So Be It."
Depending on the weight of the load, a bullet fired at 1000fps can rise to 5,000 feet in a few seconds.
Thereafter, gravity pulls the bullet back to earth faster and faster until the bullet reaches its terminal velocity (the fastest speed at which it can fall in air), or strikes an object or person. The bullet will not float down like a feather because it is heavy and designed to cut through air as fast as possible.[/quote]
Seems like I remember (hard to do these days)
30 feet per second per second in a vacuum.I wouldn't want to be under one (or even two for that matter) - I have enough headaches (no pun) dodging the recent two hail drops we've had in two weeks.
You shoot - I'll chat with you in a 1/2-hour or so.
AB
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2nd AMENdment - "So Be It."
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by andyb:
Seems like I remember (hard to do these days) 30 feet per second per second in a vacuum.
[/quote]
It's 32 ft/sec/sec, and that's acceleration to terminal velocity, not the velocity itself.
HTH.
Seems like I remember (hard to do these days)
30 feet per second per second in a vacuum.[/quote]
It's 32 ft/sec/sec, and that's acceleration to terminal velocity, not the velocity itself.
HTH.
Many of these stories about bullets being fired in the air and coming down a couple of miles away are clearly not rounds being fired straight up, since it's highly unlikely that a round fired vertically would end up anything close to two miles away. These are clearly fired in an arc, like artillary, and are much more dangerous than rounds fired straight up. I don't especially want to be under one coming straight down, but I'd rather that then one fired at a 45 deg angle.