Shooting .32 S&W Long Wadcutters out of .32 S&W (short) Revolver

F

FoundFather

New member
Say what? Crazy, right? Chamber pressure is too high, it's going to blow up in your hand! But let's have a closer look.

The standard advice, of course, is that you can shoot the older, shorter cartridges in revolvers chambered for longer, magnum, rounds, but not vice versa. Think 38 Special in a 357 Mag, but not the other way round. Fine.

BUt .32 S&W, commonly called .32 S&W Short, is actually rated by SAAMI for higher pressures than .32 S&W Long, 17,000 PSA for the Short and 15,000 PSI for the Longs using transducer method:

SAAMI Specs for .32 S&W Long and Short.jpg Link: https://saami.org/wp-content/upload...FP-and-R-Approved-2015-12-14-Posting-Copy.pdf

Using crusher method, they are both rated at 12,000 PSI.

So the Long is not necessarily a +P when loaded in the Short.

Next objection is that the longs are, well, loooong, and they just won't fit in the chamber of Shrot revolver. That's where the wadcutters come in. .32 S&W Long wadcutters are loaded flush with the case mouth of of a .32 S&W Long case, which happens to be 0.92 inches long. And what is the cartidge OAL of a .32 S&W Short? You guessed it! 0.92 inches. So the "Long" wadcutters will fit.

Why would anyone do this, you might ask? I have scoured the interwebs and can't find .32 S&W Shorts anywhere. .32 S&W Long wadcutters are readily available. The cheapest at the momoent are these from Magtech: http://magtechammunition.com/products/ammunition/32-sw-long-98gr-lwc/

That cartridge uses a 98 grain bullet and pushes it at 682 fps for a muzzle energy of 102 ft lbs. Wikipedia cites "Cartridges of the World" for 98 grain bullet going 705 fps for a muzzle energy of 115 ft lbs (not clear to me what barrel lengths were used so might not be perfect apples-to-apples comparison). The Magtechs seem to be in spec for the .32 S&W Short.

I know lots of .32S&W Short revolvers were designed for black powder, use a top latch mechanism, were cheaply built when new and usually not maintained, so they may not be safe with any cartridge. Assume we are talking about a solid frame, 20th ceturry .32 S&W Short revolver designed for smokeless powder in good mechanical condition.

Is this crazy? If so, why?
 
Yes.
A proper .32 S&W cylinder has throats of about bullet/groove diameter, reduced from chamber diameter for the inside lubricated bullet. A S&W Long would not be expected to fit, not even a wadcutter. Same as a .357 Magnum in a .38 Special cylinder; many loads are short enough overall but insertion will be stopped by that internal stepdown.

I guess you might run into an off brand revolver with bored through chambers.

But there seem to be few "solid frame, 20th century, .32 S&W short revolver designed for smokeless powder" to work with. H&R Young America or IJ Model 1900 maybe.
 
welcome to TFL

Next objection is that the longs are, well, loooong, and they just won't fit in the chamber of Shrot revolver. That's where the wadcutters come in. .32 S&W Long wadcutters are loaded flush with the case mouth of of a .32 S&W Long case, which happens to be 0.92 inches long. And what is the cartidge OAL of a .32 S&W Short? You guessed it! 0.92 inches. So the "Long" wadcutters will fit.
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Not necessarily.

MIGHT work in gun A and not in gun B. I understand your reasoning looking at just the length, but you're missing something.

The cartridge over all length is measured from the case base to the tip of the bullet. And my old Lyman manual lists .32S&W at 0.930" COAL, which would seem to allow the .920" length of the .32 S&W Long case. BUT, it might not.

What you have to look at is not the total length (which is enough) but the diameter of your gun's chambers between .605" (max length of .32S&W case) and .920" (max length of .32 S&W LONG case.)

Some guns are made so that the diameter of the chamber reduces in front of the case (the bullet is smaller in diameter than the case, and tapers down from there to its nose) and this smaller diameter (the chamber throat) might not allow the LONG case to fit.

Some .32 Short guns are "bored straight through" (its cheaper and easier) and so the long case would actually fit. These are usually the low quality guns, to start with.

SO, you need to check the specific individual gun you are working with to find out.

The pressure is not an issue. First off, SAAMI ratings for pressure of rounds are for the working pressure, one that is safe for continuous use. NOT PROOF LOAD or point where the gun will fail loads.

Second, while different pressure measuring methods will yield different results in terms of number and units, the pressure being measured is the same pressure.

IF one method says its 12K psi and a different method says 17k psi and its the same SAFE pressure being measured, while 17 is more than 12, they are the same amount just differnt due to the system used to measure them.

And, unless your gun is glass fragile junk, small differences in the working pressure of the ammo won't break anything.

Since we are to assume you're asking about a solid frame 20th century revolver, that says to me you do not have a specific gun in hand.

If that's the case, then I would answer your question about long's fitting in the short with..."possibly, but I wouldn't count on it".

The only way to know for certain is to have the gun in .32 short and see if a .32 long case will fully enter the chamber. IF it does then a flush seated wadcutter would work.

If you were a dedicated handloader, (and could get components, which is an iffy thing right now) it wouldn't matter, if all you could get were long cases, and your gun wouldn't take them, you could just trim them short and use them.

In THIS CASE, with the low pressure of both the long and the short, and in a modern solid frame revolver, I don't think there would be any safety issue IF longs fit, you could fire them.

Now, with some thing like the .38 Special/.357 Magnum, its a much, MUCH different matter and an entirely valid safety issue if your .38 will accept the magnum ammo. DON'T DO THAT!

hope this helps answer your question.
 
Thanks Jim and 44 AMP. If I might paraphrase, sounds like: "not crazy, but might not work."

OP, you need to check the specific individual gun you are working with to find out.

Since we are to assume you're asking about a solid frame 20th century revolver, that says to me you do not have a specific gun in hand.​

So, I actually just bought TWO .32 short revolvers online. (My first foray into C&R firearems, or revolvers. I have lots of other guns.) I don't have possesion yet, can't answer many questions aobut them, so I didn't want to make it all about those. One is an H&R Young American that I thought was built for smokeless powder but now believe is a black powder era version. The other is an H&R Victor which was definitely built in the smokeless era so hopefully will work with the .32 Long wadcutters. Victor was a pretty cheap line of revolvers, so quite likely to have bored through cylinders. I really like the look of the Young America. I will post more about these guns when I get them in my sweaty little mitts. If I have to keep looking to find a "shooter" then I will probably do that.

This idea originated about a year ago when I bought Seecamp in .32 ACP. I quickly assembled a pretty good stockpile of hard to find .32 ACP ammo. Then I came across somthing about these little Belgian brevete revolvers in .32 and thought they were jsut so darn cute:

BELGIAN-Folding-Trigger-POCKET-32-Cal-Revolver-Early-20th-Century-CandR-Concealed-Carry-Gun_101321646_87874_5BB5318DD0619406.jpg


.32 ACP was immensely popular in early 20th century Europe, and apparently some of these European knock offs were chambered in it. So I thought it would be really cool if I could buy a tiny little revolver chambered in .32 ACP and shoot my stash though it. But as I looked for one, I became aware that the information on them was really scarce, a lot of them were very poorly built to begin with, and you can't trust the markings on them. So, since couldn't find a revolver that I was confident was intended for and could shoot .32 ACP, I started to think aobut US production like these little H&R jobs in .32 S&W (short).

Anyone have any idea where I can buy some black powder .32 S&W ammo? I know the large producers don't mess with it. There are some places online that normally carry it, like Buffalo Arms: http://www.buffaloarms.com/32-s-w-short-black-powder-ammo-amobp32sws.html But all I have found are out of stock at the moment. Maybe I do need to get into reloading.
 
The other is an H&R Victor which was definitely built in the smokeless era so hopefully will work with the .32 Long wadcutters.
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I cannot and will not state what will or will not work about guns and ammo I have not seen. I will, however caution you not to simply assume a gun made "well into" the smokelss era was actually made for smokeless powder use.

Black powder ammo was loaded (and in some calibers it was all that was loaded) until WWII.

Some "experts" regard the general turning point between black powder and smokeless guns as about 1900, however there are others who believe that there were "black powder" guns made as late as 1920.

Certain guns, such as the Colt SAA made a distinctive change which separates the "black powder" frame from the "smokeless frame". Other guns did not. There are guns out there where the only identifying change between black powder and smokeless is a certain serial # after which they are considered "smokeless" guns.

There are people who believe there is no harm done to black powder guns using smokeless powder AT BLACK POWDER PRESSURES, and there are people who believe that while smokeless at black powder pressures is safe, it is not good for the gun and should not be done.

I have seen data that would seem to support that idea, but even if it isn't a provable fact, why risk 140+/- guns just to find out??

The old black powder and even the early smokeless .32s you're looking at were never exactly comparable to top of the line guns in larger more useful calibers, not "prestige" items, generally and often were only made "good enough" and not the best they could be.

SO, go into this with your eyes open, don't expect them to be anything other than what they are, both the good and the not so good.

Additionally, I'd like to point out that part of the popularity of the .32 ACP in Europe was political and social. There was no "wild west" where the good guys used large caliber guns. In Europe for a long time, it was felt that the good guys used smaller guns, and it was the bad guys (bandits, terrorists, insurrectionist, etc.,) used large caliber guns (especially the ex-military large bore BP revolvers that were available to them). Many places had laws that put restrictions on larger caliber arms as "military only". And this aided the popularity of the .32acp, along with the small semis they came in.
 
I don't seem to be able to use the quote function, possibly due to my extreme newbieness.

I have seen data that would seem to support that idea, but even if it isn't a provable fact, why risk 140+/- guns just to find out??​

Well, I think the Victor may be more like 90-100 years old, but I take your point. I don't want to abuse these guns, but I do want to use'em.

The old black powder and even the early smokeless .32s you're looking at were never exactly comparable to top of the line guns in larger more useful calibers, not "prestige" items, generally and often were only made "good enough" and not the best they could be.​


Exactly. These things were prodecued in large quantities, were not considered particularly special when made, and are little regarded now, judging by their values. So if they wear out doing what they were made for, shooting them, I don't feel that is a loss to history.

SO, go into this with your eyes open, don't expect them to be anything other than what they are, both the good and the not so good.​

Sure can't argue with that.

Additionally, I'd like to point out that part of the popularity of the .32 ACP in Europe was political and social.​

LOL, for the record, I have no position on the politics or social standing of .32 ACP. The Seecamp is kind of a nifty piece of man jewelry, but I have lots of bigger bore weapons available when required.
 
The OP demonstrates the postmodern disregard for gun safety. Per the NRA:

Use only the correct ammunition for your gun.

Only [rounds] designed for a particular gun can be fired safely in that gun. Most guns have the ammunition type stamped on the barrel. Ammunition can be identified by information printed on the box and sometimes stamped on the cartridge. Do not shoot the gun unless you know you have the proper ammunition.
 
That Belgian Brevette may well be chambered not for .32 S&W, but for .320 Revolver, which was to Europe what the .32 S&W was to America.

There's some confusion as to whether the .320 was originally loaded with a heeled bullet or not, but I believe that given the time frame and the fact that the .32 Short/Long Colt cartridges were based on it, it's likely.

I also have an example of a modern-loaded .320 by CBC in Brazil, loaded for Navy Arms in the 1960s, and it's got a heeled bullet.
 
The OP demonstrates the postmodern disregard for gun safety.​

Postmodern? Limnophile, that's the necest thing anyone has said about me for decades! :D

Those Belgian revolvers were made in lots of calibers. .320 revolver seems to be the most popular, but when they are sold most sellers just list them as .32, with no more indication of caliber, black powder, smokeless manufacturing date, etc. The dearth of information on them makes H&R revolvers look abundantly documented by comparison. Some of them apparently were chambered in .32 acp because it was widely available, but I have read that you can't trust the markings on these things since there were many knock-offs. Sometimes they even forged the proof marks. I don't think many of the European guns would have been chambered in .32 S&W Long or Short.

But the Belgain ones were so cute looking:

belgium 320 rev small.jpg

I started looking for US analogs.
 
Let me tell you a story about a dumb kid who was given a IJ break top 32 short. He didn’t have any ammo so he filched some of dad’s 32 long. Cut off bulk of bullet with dikes and used coarse file to flush bullet with case.
Went to dump with buddies and was going to shot a bottle at 20’. Kid had on one of those 1960s ski jackets made of stitched filled nylon, his buddy a school football jacket with leather sleeves. When kid touched off his trusty Owl Head it came apart. Cylinder blew out, gun blew open and grips shattered. Both jackets looked like they had been sorting wildcats. Lucky nothing but some minor abrasions. Kid threw gun over the hill into the dump so old man won’t find out. Buddy cried to ma over a few little scratches and she called kids old man who promptly kicked his arse. Moral is twofold, don’t swipe old man’s ammo and don’t shoot longs in 32 short guns that may be black powder age.
 
In order to get an IJ, even a BP one, to blow like that the round had to have been seriously over loaded.

Those old ductile iron black powder guns don't blow up with smokeless powder unless it's a serious overload -- the frames and cylinders stretch, eventually stretching to the point where the firing pin may no longer line up well enough to fire the round.
 
I don't think many of the European guns would have been chambered in .32 S&W Long or Short.
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A very poor assumption to make.
.32 S&W and .32 S&W Long are the most common chamberings for 'miscellaneous' centerfire euro revolvers, especially the Belgian and Spanish fishing weights.
 
".32 S&W and .32 S&W Long are the most common chamberings for 'miscellaneous' centerfire euro revolvers, especially the Belgian and Spanish fishing weights."

Interesting caveat to that.

The European revolvers chambered for .32 S&W and Colt cartridges were virtually all designed for sale in North and South America. Relatively few would have been sold in Europe.
 
Howdy

First of all, let's get something straight. There is no such thing as the 32 S&W Short. The official SAAMI name for the cartridge is simply 32 S&W. Period. As far as not being commercially available, these days with the ammo shortage everything is in short supply, and a round like the old 32 S&W is not very high on the ammo maker's priority list to make.

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The cartridge was developed by Smith and Wesson in 1878 for this revolver, the 32 Single Action Top Break revolver.

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Eventually many S&W revolvers were chambered for the 32 S&W cartridge, this is just one, a 32 Safety Hammerless, often known simply as a lemonsqueezer because of the grip safety.

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The following two photos show both revolvers broken open. The round protruding out of the rear of the cylinders is a 32 S&W Long. Because all S&W revolvers had a chamber throat, which would not allow a cartridge that was two long to be fully chambered, the 32 S&W Long cartridges are not fully seated. The round in the Single Action revolver is protruding by about .32. The round in the Hammerless revolver is protruding by about .352. If you look carefully you will see the rim of a proper cartridge, 32 S&W, properly chambered with the rim barely visible. Below each cylinder I have placed a 32 S&W Long cartridge as well as a 32 S&W. Comparing the loaded 32 S&W Long rounds to the cylinders, if the chambers were bored out to accept the 32 S&W Long rounds, the bullets would obviously stick way out. If one were to make a true 32 S&W Long wad cutter round, the brass would only be about .040 from the front of the cylinder.

I make no claim about other brands, but I do know a fair amount about Smith and Wesson revolvers. Even if I bored out the chambers on these revolvers to accept a 32 S&W Long round, and made up some rounds with wad cutters, there is no way I would fire them in either of these revolvers.

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"First of all, let's get something straight. There is no such thing as the 32 S&W Short. The official SAAMI name for the cartridge is simply 32 S&W."

Well, let the SAAMI police come around and issue tickets for improper use of cartridge nomenclature.

This is just another case of a cartridge having multiple names. Sure, one "official" name, but does saying .32 S&W Short, or .45 Long Colt, really so confound and confuse people that smoke pours out of their ears and they stumble around blankly crying "I just don't understand!"

I'm pretty sure that Elmer Keith used to call it the .32 S&W Short, and did so in his writings, so that term has been out there for a long time.

Nothing to get hot and bothered about.

Unless some uncultured oaf says .45 Long Colt. Those are fightin' words!
 
Mike Irwin said:
"First of all, let's get something straight. There is no such thing as the 32 S&W Short. The official SAAMI name for the cartridge is simply 32 S&W."

Well, let the SAAMI police come around and issue tickets for improper use of cartridge nomenclature.

This is just another case of a cartridge having multiple names. Sure, one "official" name, but does saying .32 S&W Short, or .45 Long Colt, really so confound and confuse people that smoke pours out of their ears and they stumble around blankly crying "I just don't understand!"

I'm pretty sure that Elmer Keith used to call it the .32 S&W Short, and did so in his writings, so that term has been out there for a long time.

Nothing to get hot and bothered about.

Unless some uncultured oaf says .45 Long Colt. Those are fightin' words!
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And I shoot mostly .45 Short Colt in both the rimmed and rimless version in both my pistols and revolvers using both magazines and clips except when the clip is not needed.
 
Good thing we are talking revolvers and no clips involved.

OK, FF, have you yet tried to stick a .32 SWL wadcutter or empty case in your Saturday Night Specials?
 
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