I was asked this question by a friend and I really didn’t have a definitive answer for him. I know that there is a difference between the .30-06 round and the 7.62x63mm round. In short, a lot of folks say not to shoot .30-06 commercial ammo in an M1Garand. What is the truth? Do I tell him to source old 7.62x63mm ammo or is there an available commercial .30-06 ammo that will work appropriately? THANKS!!!
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Shooting .30-06 in an M1 Garand
- Thread starter Bilbo24
- Start date
Below are some examples of modern commercial 30-06 ammo intended for the Garand. There are probably others.
https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1777318110
https://www.midwayusa.com/product/953112253
https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1777318110
https://www.midwayusa.com/product/953112253
I have a ton of HXP left and use my own reloads for hunting amm for my Garands, but here's a good link. He did a bunch of testing, and Garands were shot a bunch before guys heard about "Garand safe " ammo. I wouldn't have a problem using some commercial ammo in any of mine, BUT I wouldn't shoot any of the "magnum" ammo some are making, or anything over 150 grains. If a guy is worried get a adjustable valve or one of the ported ones from Garand gear.
http://www.garandgear.com/m1-garand-ammunition
http://www.garandgear.com/m1-garand-ammunition
If you search this Forum for "Garand pressure curve" you will find pages and pages of information about this, with endless fascinating and illuminating discussions.
Or just send your friend to https://www.guns.com/news/2011/08/16/the-secret-to-a-long-life-a-garand-diet-or-what-to-feed-your-m1-garand-part-i and https://www.garandgear.com/m1-garand-ammunition to educate himself.
Ooop! I type too slow, he beat me to it.
Or just send your friend to https://www.guns.com/news/2011/08/16/the-secret-to-a-long-life-a-garand-diet-or-what-to-feed-your-m1-garand-part-i and https://www.garandgear.com/m1-garand-ammunition to educate himself.
Ooop! I type too slow, he beat me to it.
I will assume the linked articles cover this,but the major problem of concern is the gas pressure at the gas port.
The Garand was designed to work with powder in the H-4895 burn rate range.
Its a fairly fast burning powder. The burn curve will sustain less pressure at the gas port. Too much pressure damages the operating rod.
With a bolt gun,I can get higher performance out of a 30-06 using a slower powder,like IMR 4350. But the slower rpowder makes for higher pressure at the gas port.
Those loads would be bad for a Garand.
Velocity and performance numbers sell ammo. The bolt gun elk hunter wants the loads that would be bad for a Garand. To be safe,I'd generally stay away from commercial hunting ammo. No,that does not mean all commercial hunting ammo is unsuitable.
But you have to be selective. I choose to handload to meet my needs.
There ARE commercial target loads tailored to the Garand.
I'm sure some 150 to 165 gr commercial hunting loads would work OK,but I don't know which ones to recommend.
The Garand was designed to work with powder in the H-4895 burn rate range.
Its a fairly fast burning powder. The burn curve will sustain less pressure at the gas port. Too much pressure damages the operating rod.
With a bolt gun,I can get higher performance out of a 30-06 using a slower powder,like IMR 4350. But the slower rpowder makes for higher pressure at the gas port.
Those loads would be bad for a Garand.
Velocity and performance numbers sell ammo. The bolt gun elk hunter wants the loads that would be bad for a Garand. To be safe,I'd generally stay away from commercial hunting ammo. No,that does not mean all commercial hunting ammo is unsuitable.
But you have to be selective. I choose to handload to meet my needs.
There ARE commercial target loads tailored to the Garand.
I'm sure some 150 to 165 gr commercial hunting loads would work OK,but I don't know which ones to recommend.
Dfariswheel
New member
As above, the M1 was engineered to be used with a very specific specification ammo.
No thought at all was given to other bullet weights, steel cases, different powders, or any commercial ammo.
Bullets over 173 grain or a different powder can seriously damage an M1 because it was not designed for them.
There is commercial ammo that's M1 safe, and it's usually American made "military pack" type ammo, almost always with 150 grain bullets, as example Federal "white box".
There is a way to shoot other types of commercial ammo, and that's to install an adjustable gas cylinder lock screw that vents excess gas.
The best is the Schuster nut that can be easily adjusted with an Allen wrench.
To use simply open up the nut and fire the rifle. The rifle will not function.
Close the nut in increments and shoot until the rifle operates correctly and you're set for that ammo.
https://www.midwayusa.com/product/100471950/
No thought at all was given to other bullet weights, steel cases, different powders, or any commercial ammo.
Bullets over 173 grain or a different powder can seriously damage an M1 because it was not designed for them.
There is commercial ammo that's M1 safe, and it's usually American made "military pack" type ammo, almost always with 150 grain bullets, as example Federal "white box".
There is a way to shoot other types of commercial ammo, and that's to install an adjustable gas cylinder lock screw that vents excess gas.
The best is the Schuster nut that can be easily adjusted with an Allen wrench.
To use simply open up the nut and fire the rifle. The rifle will not function.
Close the nut in increments and shoot until the rifle operates correctly and you're set for that ammo.
https://www.midwayusa.com/product/100471950/
M1 rifles were originally used with 173 grain FMJBT bullets. Later switched to 150 grain bullets for service use but kept the 173 for match use. AP bullets weighing 165 grains were also used
A favorite commercial match ammo was made by Western Cartridge Company with 180 grain bullets as it was more accurate than M72 match ammo. Another very accurate load was replacing the M72 match bullet with a Sierra 180 HPMK or SBT hunting bullet.
Heaviest match bullets used in Garands was the Sierra 190 HPMK over IMR4320 powder in USN 7.62 NATO versions. It tested under 4 inches at 600 yards. M118 tested 12 to 18 inches.
I believe Frankfort arsenal tested 30-06 match ammo with IMR4064 powder and got much better accuracy. Only with weighed charges because it didn't meter uniform enough in weight as IMR4895 did
A favorite commercial match ammo was made by Western Cartridge Company with 180 grain bullets as it was more accurate than M72 match ammo. Another very accurate load was replacing the M72 match bullet with a Sierra 180 HPMK or SBT hunting bullet.
Heaviest match bullets used in Garands was the Sierra 190 HPMK over IMR4320 powder in USN 7.62 NATO versions. It tested under 4 inches at 600 yards. M118 tested 12 to 18 inches.
I believe Frankfort arsenal tested 30-06 match ammo with IMR4064 powder and got much better accuracy. Only with weighed charges because it didn't meter uniform enough in weight as IMR4895 did
M1 rifles were originally used with 173 grain FMJBT bullets. Later switched to 150 grain bullets for service use but kept the 173 for match use. AP bullets weighing 165 grains were also used
A favorite commercial match ammo was made by Western Cartridge Company with 180 grain bullets as it was more accurate than M72 match ammo. Another very accurate load was replacing the M72 match bullet with a Sierra 180 HPMK or SBT hunting bullet.
Heaviest match bullets used in Garands was the Sierra 190 HPMK over IMR4320 powder in USN 7.62 NATO versions. It tested under 4 inches at 600 yards. M118 tested 12 to 18 inches.
I believe Frankfort arsenal tested 30-06 match ammo with IMR4064 powder and got much better accuracy. Only with weighed charges because it didn't meter uniform enough in weight as IMR4895 did
Bart,I don't doubt what you have written is true.
I'm uncertain how it should be applied by the shooter of the typical CMP or historic Garand.
Are you suggesting we use whatever 180 grain hunting ammo is on the shelf?
Might the rifles prepped for Team Navy have been "tuned"?
I don't hav any spare op rods or armorers to turn to.
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No.Are you suggesting we use whatever 180 grain hunting ammo is on the shelf?
No. But their op rods were perfectly fit so even proof loads with much more chamber and port pressures didn't bend them. Their gas ports were drilled out about 20% to .1065 inch to get gas cylinder pressures up to M1 specs of about 2050 psi.Might the rifles prepped for Team Navy have been "tuned"?
There may be 1 or 2 Smith's that have what's needed to do that right.
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Lot’s of good info in here.
I think Bart covers this well. H4895, IMR4064, etc. The problem is lots of ammo for hunting and target shooting is using high energy powders....those will over pressure the Garand gas system. There are bleed off plugs, adjustable plugs, etc....trouble is, how do I know they are keeping me from bending my op rod? Better to be safe and fire the right bullet weight range, powders, etc.
I think Bart covers this well. H4895, IMR4064, etc. The problem is lots of ammo for hunting and target shooting is using high energy powders....those will over pressure the Garand gas system. There are bleed off plugs, adjustable plugs, etc....trouble is, how do I know they are keeping me from bending my op rod? Better to be safe and fire the right bullet weight range, powders, etc.
I'd say the best thing to do is to run GI spec ammo in a GI spec gun.
The Garand (and all semi autos) is designed to operate with a fairly narrow range of ammo specs, compared to manually operated actions.
some designs have a greater tolerance range than others. You can get into the details of port pressure and other things, but consider this, as a general guideline...
If the GI spec says a 150gr bullet at 2750+/- and the commercial ammo says its a 150gr at 2900fps (or higher??) do you think its the same pressure as the GI load??
Think of it somewhat like a car engine. Made to run on a certain grade of gas. Some variation of fuel doesn't matter a lot, a different one can have larger consequences.
If your engine is designed to run on 87 octane regular and you feed it 92 octane premium it usually won't hurt much, but if you feed it 100+ octane aviation fuel, you might wind up with damage to the engine.
I saw an extreme example of this, that sadly resulted in a death in the 70s. GI Deuce and a half truck, "multifuel" engine, normally run on diesel.
One guy fueled one up (against the regs and apparently not knowing any better) with aviation fuel. The normally low rpm enging (2600rpm max on the tach) ran "like gangbusters" for about half a minute or so, then turned into a grenade and parts of it entered the truck cab and killed the driver.
Running commercial ammo in your Garand is no where near this bad an "overage" but it's been proven that it can be hard on the gun. A modification to the GI design such as a "vented" gas plug allows for a wider range of "safe" operating pressures in the ammo by only allowing the "right" amount of pressure at the right point.
The gas piston system of the M14 allows for this as a built in feature. The original GI system of the Garand, does not.
There is some commercial ammo listed as duplicating GI ball M2 that is "just right" for an unmodified Garand. Some of the current loading manual have sections for Garand loads. Shooting hot (2900fps+) hunting ammo is not guaranteed to damage your Garand, but the odds are fairly high it could, so why risk it??
A good hunting bullet at GI spec speeds and pressure will kill deer or anything else as dead as dead gets. If you want the fastest speed and flattest trajectory, the simple answer is to just use a different rifle, not the Garand.
The Garand (and all semi autos) is designed to operate with a fairly narrow range of ammo specs, compared to manually operated actions.
some designs have a greater tolerance range than others. You can get into the details of port pressure and other things, but consider this, as a general guideline...
If the GI spec says a 150gr bullet at 2750+/- and the commercial ammo says its a 150gr at 2900fps (or higher??) do you think its the same pressure as the GI load??
Think of it somewhat like a car engine. Made to run on a certain grade of gas. Some variation of fuel doesn't matter a lot, a different one can have larger consequences.
If your engine is designed to run on 87 octane regular and you feed it 92 octane premium it usually won't hurt much, but if you feed it 100+ octane aviation fuel, you might wind up with damage to the engine.
I saw an extreme example of this, that sadly resulted in a death in the 70s. GI Deuce and a half truck, "multifuel" engine, normally run on diesel.
One guy fueled one up (against the regs and apparently not knowing any better) with aviation fuel. The normally low rpm enging (2600rpm max on the tach) ran "like gangbusters" for about half a minute or so, then turned into a grenade and parts of it entered the truck cab and killed the driver.
Running commercial ammo in your Garand is no where near this bad an "overage" but it's been proven that it can be hard on the gun. A modification to the GI design such as a "vented" gas plug allows for a wider range of "safe" operating pressures in the ammo by only allowing the "right" amount of pressure at the right point.
The gas piston system of the M14 allows for this as a built in feature. The original GI system of the Garand, does not.
There is some commercial ammo listed as duplicating GI ball M2 that is "just right" for an unmodified Garand. Some of the current loading manual have sections for Garand loads. Shooting hot (2900fps+) hunting ammo is not guaranteed to damage your Garand, but the odds are fairly high it could, so why risk it??
A good hunting bullet at GI spec speeds and pressure will kill deer or anything else as dead as dead gets. If you want the fastest speed and flattest trajectory, the simple answer is to just use a different rifle, not the Garand.
Yes.If the GI spec says a 150gr bullet at 2750+/- and the commercial ammo says its a 150gr at 2900fps (or higher??) do you think its the same pressure as the GI load?
Both military and SAAMI chamber pressure specs are 50,000 cup. Military 165 grain AP bullet ammo pressure is 54,000 cup.
Velocity is measured at 78 feet for military version that's typically 2800+ fps, who knows what's used for commercial ammo.
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IMO ,there is more to ot than 50,000 cup peak pressure.
A 50.000 CUP with 4895 is a different experience for the Garand than 50,000 CUP with 4350.
Both powders work fine in a 30-06 bolt gun. The 4895 works fine with a Garand.
4350 at 50,000 CUP will have more residual pressure at the gas port
At 50.000 CUP,the slowr burning 4350 may be hard on a Garand while 4895 and similar burn rate powders may be deal for a Garand at 50.000 CUP.
I personally prefer my bolt action 30-06 for hunting. My Garand mostly shoots targets.
I load only hunting bullets,such as a Ballistic tip,with stout loads of 4350 or other slower powder. Those would not be good for a Garand.
I load only match type HPBT bullets for my Garand,using 4895, Varget,RE 15,4064,etc.
It won't hurt anything to use the target bullets in the bolt gun,but I just don't shoot my hunting bullet loads in the Garand.
A 50.000 CUP with 4895 is a different experience for the Garand than 50,000 CUP with 4350.
Both powders work fine in a 30-06 bolt gun. The 4895 works fine with a Garand.
4350 at 50,000 CUP will have more residual pressure at the gas port
At 50.000 CUP,the slowr burning 4350 may be hard on a Garand while 4895 and similar burn rate powders may be deal for a Garand at 50.000 CUP.
I personally prefer my bolt action 30-06 for hunting. My Garand mostly shoots targets.
I load only hunting bullets,such as a Ballistic tip,with stout loads of 4350 or other slower powder. Those would not be good for a Garand.
I load only match type HPBT bullets for my Garand,using 4895, Varget,RE 15,4064,etc.
It won't hurt anything to use the target bullets in the bolt gun,but I just don't shoot my hunting bullet loads in the Garand.
What powder charges are used in commercial 30-06 ammo with bullets heavier than 150 grains?
What ever the maker puts in there. Often tis not powder available to the handloader.
One day at the Fort Sill private weapons range i watched a USMC lieutenant fire a five shot group that measured 1 1/4 inch from the prone position with his new DCM M1 rifle.
We chatted and he asked what would make the rifle more accurate. My answer: "Sir, you can't make that rifle more accurate. Go back to the store where you bought that 180 grain Winchester ammunition and buy it all."
We chatted and he asked what would make the rifle more accurate. My answer: "Sir, you can't make that rifle more accurate. Go back to the store where you bought that 180 grain Winchester ammunition and buy it all."
Hornady says their Superperformance ammo is safe in all rifle types including semiautomatics. If the powder used to shoot 30-06 bullets near 200 fps faster yet produces safe gas cylinder pressure in Garands, it probably is a proprietary powder not canistered for retail sales.
If someone who has some would look closely at the powder, if particles had different shapes and colors, that's an indicator that different powders with their individual unique burn properties were mixed.
A safe way to use duplex, triplex and quadplex loads that's been tried for decades.
Meanwhile, just found this:
https://loaddata.com/Article/BenchTopics/Hodgdon-Superformance-Powder/140
Enlarge the picture then notice the different colored powder granules.
Hodgdon's website has 30-06 load data for Superperformance powder. Very interesting indeed.
If someone who has some would look closely at the powder, if particles had different shapes and colors, that's an indicator that different powders with their individual unique burn properties were mixed.
A safe way to use duplex, triplex and quadplex loads that's been tried for decades.
Meanwhile, just found this:
https://loaddata.com/Article/BenchTopics/Hodgdon-Superformance-Powder/140
Enlarge the picture then notice the different colored powder granules.
Hodgdon's website has 30-06 load data for Superperformance powder. Very interesting indeed.
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Jim Watson
New member
Velocity is measured at 78 feet for military
SAAMI spec... chronographed at 15 feet.
Why 78 feet?
Early electromechanical and electric chronographs had to have the screens far apart to get decent precision. The start screen was at one yard - a physical conductor not affected by muzzle blast that close - and the stop at 51 yards, 150 feet apart. Velocity stated at the midpoint 75 feet between screens, 78 feet from the gun.
Modern multi-megahertz counter chronographs can give good data with much closer spacing, a foot on my CE consumer grade box, I don't know if SAAMI defines, but the Oehler industrial unit says 10 or 20 feet from a 10 foot start.
Hornady says their Superperformance ammo is safe in all rifle types including semiautomatics. If the powder used to shoot 30-06 bullets near 200 fps faster yet produces safe gas cylinder pressure in Garands,
I'd want them to say they specifically included the Garand before I tried to soup up an M1 with the Special Sauce. Nobody uses a muzzle port any more.