This stuff has been around for a long time but I cannot find where anyone has ever used it except for one guy. A number of people have asked over the years if anyone has used it and the only responses have been the usual cold blue is never as good as hot blue and this that or the other is good but no one has ever given any feedback on the product. I just tried to use Blue Wonder and got terrible results. Shooter's Solution sounds like it might actually work so I will ask again if anyone has used it and what kind of results did you get?
Shooter's Solution gun blue
- Thread starter dgbingham
- Start date
Dixie Gunsmithing
Moderator Emeritus
All cold blue is manufactured from almost the same chemicals, such as sulfamic acid, phosphoric acid, selenious acid (the main ingredient), and a certain type of copper or nickel sulfate along with nitrates. The black color is a copper selenide and not an actual black iron-oxide. Many of the different brands are made by only one or two manufacturers. Brownell's is the only place that you can get some of the better cold blues, such as Oxpho-Blue and 44/40, and they too were having theirs made private label at one time. Brownell's finally bought out the company that made Formula 44/40, and if I recall, that came from an e-mail that they sent at one time.
You will not find any that will not easily wear off, though some quicker than others, but not by much. You would be better off doing a hot water blue such as Herter's Belgian or Dicropan IM, if you have a tank to heat water in. There is a huge difference between hot water and cold blue, especially wear.
Dicropan IM:
http://www.brownells.com/gunsmith-tools-supplies/metal-prep-coloring/metal-bluing/specialty-bluing-chemicals/dicropan-im--prod1067.aspx
Herter's Belgian:
http://www.brownells.com/gunsmith-tools-supplies/metal-prep-coloring/metal-bluing/specialty-bluing-chemicals/belgian-blue-prod7604.aspx
Dicropan IM is actually made from a cold blue formula, but is slightly different in composition, and is used on heated parts to replace Belgium blue, which contains mercury.
You will not find any that will not easily wear off, though some quicker than others, but not by much. You would be better off doing a hot water blue such as Herter's Belgian or Dicropan IM, if you have a tank to heat water in. There is a huge difference between hot water and cold blue, especially wear.
Dicropan IM:
http://www.brownells.com/gunsmith-tools-supplies/metal-prep-coloring/metal-bluing/specialty-bluing-chemicals/dicropan-im--prod1067.aspx
Herter's Belgian:
http://www.brownells.com/gunsmith-tools-supplies/metal-prep-coloring/metal-bluing/specialty-bluing-chemicals/belgian-blue-prod7604.aspx
Dicropan IM is actually made from a cold blue formula, but is slightly different in composition, and is used on heated parts to replace Belgium blue, which contains mercury.
Shooter's Solutions compounds their own blue. The owner is a chemist of some kind, apparently, and experiments with compounding things. They used to sell Van's Gun Blue, which is like Oxpho-blue (a charcoal gray phosphate finish in most light), but dropped it when they came up with their own formulation. Additionally, their literature says their formulation works on brass and copper as well as steel. Most brands have separate blues for those other metals. They also sell a version for stainless steel.
I have not tried either of their blues, but they claim they differ from others on the market. If their original formula works on steel, brass and copper all in one, as they say, then something is different about it. I have some stainless blue made by another company, but its results are not very dark. Perhaps the Shooter's Solutions version would do better, but I don't know.
I have used their Moly Fusion product to good effect on a number of things (never used it in a bore, as they show, but have achieved significantly smoother operation of parts in some devices with it). I have some of their steel phosphatizing solutions, but haven't had time to try them yet.
I have not tried either of their blues, but they claim they differ from others on the market. If their original formula works on steel, brass and copper all in one, as they say, then something is different about it. I have some stainless blue made by another company, but its results are not very dark. Perhaps the Shooter's Solutions version would do better, but I don't know.
I have used their Moly Fusion product to good effect on a number of things (never used it in a bore, as they show, but have achieved significantly smoother operation of parts in some devices with it). I have some of their steel phosphatizing solutions, but haven't had time to try them yet.
Bill DeShivs
New member
They are pretty much all the same.
Any of them will immediately blacken copper or brass.
Any of them will immediately blacken copper or brass.
I have no idea whether this is good, bad and/or dangerous:
https://www.reddit.com/r/guns/comments/2bgcvd/diy_home_reblue_stepbystep_nitre_blue_in_your/
https://www.reddit.com/r/guns/comments/2bgcvd/diy_home_reblue_stepbystep_nitre_blue_in_your/
deerslayer303
New member
Thanks for the post ^^ Lamarw! That is quite interesting.
Dixie Gunsmithing
Moderator Emeritus
From looking over the Shooter's Solutions type of blue, it seems to be similar to Dicropan IM, since they are heating the parts. However, you'll notice that they also sell a clear-coat lacquer, "Laq-EXTREME Clearcoat", and that is so it won't wear off.
I could not see a link to a MSDS sheet for their gun blue, as that will tell the chemicals in it. One probably has to ask for it, as they are required to have one. However, it will be based on selenious acid and copper sulfate, (the two main chemicals), with maybe nickel sulfate thrown in and a few other acids.
Bill is correct, in that most all cold blue will blacken brass and copper. They remarket/relabel it in other bottles as copper and brass black, though they might play with the chemical composition amounts. I imagine they wouldn't need as much copper sulfate in it, since the selenious acid would work directly on the base metal.
Birchwood Casey has a cold bluing line for factories, which has several tanks, from cleaning to sealing. The sealer just helps with the wear and rust. Some plants use this to blacken screws, gears, sprockets, etc, in place of caustic bluing. It uses the same chemicals.
The better bluing for a home user, is Herter's Belgian Blue, (Art's gun shop bought the formula, and makes it now), if you use proper safety precautions, since it has mercury in it. That stuff is the old original compound used by gun manufacturers for double barrel sets. It is a tough finish, and only requires hot water to heat the part while you swab it on the clean polished parts, then card the metal with steel wool or a carding wheel between applications until you get it dark enough. The other alternative is rust bluing, which uses a similar process.
I could not see a link to a MSDS sheet for their gun blue, as that will tell the chemicals in it. One probably has to ask for it, as they are required to have one. However, it will be based on selenious acid and copper sulfate, (the two main chemicals), with maybe nickel sulfate thrown in and a few other acids.
Bill is correct, in that most all cold blue will blacken brass and copper. They remarket/relabel it in other bottles as copper and brass black, though they might play with the chemical composition amounts. I imagine they wouldn't need as much copper sulfate in it, since the selenious acid would work directly on the base metal.
Birchwood Casey has a cold bluing line for factories, which has several tanks, from cleaning to sealing. The sealer just helps with the wear and rust. Some plants use this to blacken screws, gears, sprockets, etc, in place of caustic bluing. It uses the same chemicals.
The better bluing for a home user, is Herter's Belgian Blue, (Art's gun shop bought the formula, and makes it now), if you use proper safety precautions, since it has mercury in it. That stuff is the old original compound used by gun manufacturers for double barrel sets. It is a tough finish, and only requires hot water to heat the part while you swab it on the clean polished parts, then card the metal with steel wool or a carding wheel between applications until you get it dark enough. The other alternative is rust bluing, which uses a similar process.
Thanks for the feedback. After watching their video and trying to read the information on their website, I concluded that if it was anywhere as good a they claim lots of people would have tried it; however, the info on their site is the most confusing I have ever seen and that alone could keep people from trying it. The reason I was even considering it was that the local gunsmiths told me that you could not get hot bluing done anymore. There are still quite a few places that on their websites say they do it and price is not a lot higher than buying the DIY stuff. The only problem is the turn around times are quite long and none are close to me. I guess I try one of them. I worry about having something like this done without having seen their work. They have all have pictures but they are too small to really see what the bluing actually looks like.
Yes. Jonathan's prose clarity is an issue and his business would benefit from hiring a writer to go over it and interview him on parts they didn't understand and rewrite it for clarity. But the moly-fusion product I've had from him did what he said it would, and even though I haven't tried the phosphating materials yet, I did use the water displacing rinse he sells after using some older Brownells Parkerizing, and it worked fine.
Bill and Dixie are correct that the coloring agents (actually, growing selenium, nickel and copper microcrystaline needles that tend to trap light; it's like an electroless version of blue selenium or black nickel, copper, chromium, or platinum electroplating). However, I'll disagree that the solutions are overall the same in that the different surface activating acids used behave differently. Particular, the phosphoric acid types, Van's and Oxpho-blue, create thin phosphate conversion coating layers that are more corrosion resistant than the others, but which lack deep color (they are more charcoal gray to my eye).
The nitric acid based ones (e.g., 44/40) color deepest, and the hydrochloric acid-based one Outers had years ago (maybe they still do; I haven't looked) was most prone to after-rust. The latter two types etch the substrate to nucleate growth of the crystalline needles, but don't add the phosphate conversion that ties up free iron better to help prevent after-rust. Unfortunately, the phosphate also appears to lighten the color. Ferric chloride resulting from hydrochloric acid reacting with iron in steel promotes corrosion and deep rust knots that leave severe pits if you fail to get every trace of it out, so I can't recommend it. I always neutralize all cold blue work with an alkaline cleaner like Formula 409 afterward, then rinse and boil in distilled water to get that out, then soak it in water displacing oil. The only exception is cold blacking for aluminum, as the 409 will etch aluminum. Dishwashing liquid in water is what I use for that.
There are also mixed acid base versions. There was both nitric and phosphoric acid in one that used to be made in Canada twenty-five years ago. It was the best one I found for blackening sights. Very black (probably high nickel) and it boasted that it hardened over time, which it seemed to. It was much more difficult to rub off after sitting about 24 hours. Too bad it's no longer made.
I've used the nitric acid products on brass and copper before, but found the acid too aggressive and I got black flakes coming off the surface. So I've always assumed the solutions labeled for these metals had a higher pH to mitigate the aggressiveness. But I admit I've never measured their pH to confirm that guess.
Application tips:
Fine abrasive blasting as surface prep helps darken color and improve adhesion, too, but on steel it gives you a matte finish, so you can't use it where a smooth or polished finish is desired. I blast with 240 grit aluminum oxide from a Badger air eraser to prep iron sites for cold coloring because I want a really flat black there.
I've also had that problem with splotchy surfaces when using an aluminum blacking solution. I found that if I diluted it with 3 parts water, submerged the part (small heat sinks, in my case) and scrubbed the surface constantly with an old toothbrush during coloring, that got me 100% even coverage. I never tried it with steel blue on brass and copper to cure that flaking problem, but the combination of dilution and keeping any loose black carded (what the brush does) may fix that, too.
Bill and Dixie are correct that the coloring agents (actually, growing selenium, nickel and copper microcrystaline needles that tend to trap light; it's like an electroless version of blue selenium or black nickel, copper, chromium, or platinum electroplating). However, I'll disagree that the solutions are overall the same in that the different surface activating acids used behave differently. Particular, the phosphoric acid types, Van's and Oxpho-blue, create thin phosphate conversion coating layers that are more corrosion resistant than the others, but which lack deep color (they are more charcoal gray to my eye).
The nitric acid based ones (e.g., 44/40) color deepest, and the hydrochloric acid-based one Outers had years ago (maybe they still do; I haven't looked) was most prone to after-rust. The latter two types etch the substrate to nucleate growth of the crystalline needles, but don't add the phosphate conversion that ties up free iron better to help prevent after-rust. Unfortunately, the phosphate also appears to lighten the color. Ferric chloride resulting from hydrochloric acid reacting with iron in steel promotes corrosion and deep rust knots that leave severe pits if you fail to get every trace of it out, so I can't recommend it. I always neutralize all cold blue work with an alkaline cleaner like Formula 409 afterward, then rinse and boil in distilled water to get that out, then soak it in water displacing oil. The only exception is cold blacking for aluminum, as the 409 will etch aluminum. Dishwashing liquid in water is what I use for that.
There are also mixed acid base versions. There was both nitric and phosphoric acid in one that used to be made in Canada twenty-five years ago. It was the best one I found for blackening sights. Very black (probably high nickel) and it boasted that it hardened over time, which it seemed to. It was much more difficult to rub off after sitting about 24 hours. Too bad it's no longer made.
I've used the nitric acid products on brass and copper before, but found the acid too aggressive and I got black flakes coming off the surface. So I've always assumed the solutions labeled for these metals had a higher pH to mitigate the aggressiveness. But I admit I've never measured their pH to confirm that guess.
Application tips:
Fine abrasive blasting as surface prep helps darken color and improve adhesion, too, but on steel it gives you a matte finish, so you can't use it where a smooth or polished finish is desired. I blast with 240 grit aluminum oxide from a Badger air eraser to prep iron sites for cold coloring because I want a really flat black there.
I've also had that problem with splotchy surfaces when using an aluminum blacking solution. I found that if I diluted it with 3 parts water, submerged the part (small heat sinks, in my case) and scrubbed the surface constantly with an old toothbrush during coloring, that got me 100% even coverage. I never tried it with steel blue on brass and copper to cure that flaking problem, but the combination of dilution and keeping any loose black carded (what the brush does) may fix that, too.
"...pretty much all the same..." And mostly a colouring agent vs much in the way of protection. Better than nothing though.
"...will blacken brass and copper..." Puts a fairly durable black on bronze too. Used Outer's cold bluing of a set of spurs years and years ago and it hasn't worn a bit. Mind you, they get looked at, mostly, vs getting a horse to move faster.
"...will blacken brass and copper..." Puts a fairly durable black on bronze too. Used Outer's cold bluing of a set of spurs years and years ago and it hasn't worn a bit. Mind you, they get looked at, mostly, vs getting a horse to move faster.
Dixie Gunsmithing
Moderator Emeritus
dgbingham, They're are still some who do caustic bluing. I retired and don't do it anymore, but there are still many who do. You may not find anyone local and have to ship it off, but many are still buying the hot caustic bluing sets. The main problem, on any bluing job, is to find a gunsmith that can polish a gun, and whether they take the time to remove any pitting from rust.
Hot caustic bluing, which is what the gun manufacturers use, is essentially boiling a piece of polished steel in a salt bath of lye, salt peter, and water at 280 Deg. F. It actually forms a black rust (black iron oxide) on the surface.
Many new gunsmiths only offer a paint or epoxy coating, though some also offer the hot water bluing process, because it is easier to do with less investment. It takes a while to recover the investment in a hot caustic setup. Back around 1986, a complete hot caustic setup ran around $1,200.00, but it is much more now, closer to $3,000.00. Though, if you obtain several sporting goods and other shops business, you can actually pay it off pretty quick. I hope that some of our budding new gunsmiths will pick it up, as it was a staple of my business.
Personally, I think that caustic bluing is as safe as, or safer, than hot water bluing with Belgian Blue, due to the mercury, but either are safe if you follow the proper safety precautions, and ventilation is the most important. Gunsmithing requires the handling of some pretty dangerous chemicals all through it.
Hot caustic bluing, which is what the gun manufacturers use, is essentially boiling a piece of polished steel in a salt bath of lye, salt peter, and water at 280 Deg. F. It actually forms a black rust (black iron oxide) on the surface.
Many new gunsmiths only offer a paint or epoxy coating, though some also offer the hot water bluing process, because it is easier to do with less investment. It takes a while to recover the investment in a hot caustic setup. Back around 1986, a complete hot caustic setup ran around $1,200.00, but it is much more now, closer to $3,000.00. Though, if you obtain several sporting goods and other shops business, you can actually pay it off pretty quick. I hope that some of our budding new gunsmiths will pick it up, as it was a staple of my business.
Personally, I think that caustic bluing is as safe as, or safer, than hot water bluing with Belgian Blue, due to the mercury, but either are safe if you follow the proper safety precautions, and ventilation is the most important. Gunsmithing requires the handling of some pretty dangerous chemicals all through it.
Dixie Gunsmithing, I am trying to decide who to send my barrel to have it hot dip blued. One place I called said that if the barrel had ever been blued it could not be blued successfully after I told them that I had tried Blue wonder on it. I ruled them out based on that statement which seems ridiculous. I degreased the barrel and used Blue Wonder's blue removal kit on it followed by another degreasing. I then polished (sanded) it again with 600, 1500, and 2000 grit to what looks like a perfect match to the original barrel. The next place I called told me that if I polished it to that level the bluing would be very thin and would come off quickly if I used the gun because the scratches left from the polishing would not provide enough bite for the bluing. There are still scratches visible under light and people offer polished finishes to this level. Since you have experience bluing, what do you think? I do not want to have the receiver reblued since it is basically brand new and I do not want the barrel to look out of place on it. I will probably not hunt with it although I also have a 270 with the same finish and I never had any problems hunting with it. I hunted early in the day and late in the evening so there was no sun to reflect off of it anyway. The point is I want the barrel to be shiny but I don't want the blue to come off too easily.
Dixie Gunsmithing
Moderator Emeritus
Most gun barrels are only polished to 400 grit, and the finest polished to 550-600.
Hot blue, either Belgian or caustic, will work with any barrel polished to 600 grit using greaseless polishing compound, which is practically a mirror finish. S&W revolvers, etc., with a mirror finish, are taken only to 550-600. Most everyone uses Formax compound, and I think it is sized by the ANSI grit size.
If I recall, and it is according to the paper manufacturer, as some of their grits are different than the grit sizing in US manufactured polish. As an example, P500 grit's ANSI size is 360, and P1200 is just smaller than ANSI size 600. P numbers are for paper grit size. I'm not for sure what the grit size is, in microns, in the paper that you used, as it is according to where it is made. If you have the grits micron size, it is easier to convert. P800, or ANSI 400, is 22.8 micron. P1200 would be something like an ANSI 650, though they don't have that ANSI number, but ANSI 600 is 16 micron, and P1200 is 15 micron. P2000 grit, though, is almost as high as one can go, at 10.3 micron, and you don't need it that fine, though it will still blacken in a caustic bath. These smaller grit sizes are known as micro-grits.
This being said, one could simply run a 600 grit loose polishing wheel over it, very quickly, and it would be the same thing as what the finest factory polish would do to it, though it would take down that fine a finish.
Hot blue, either Belgian or caustic, will work with any barrel polished to 600 grit using greaseless polishing compound, which is practically a mirror finish. S&W revolvers, etc., with a mirror finish, are taken only to 550-600. Most everyone uses Formax compound, and I think it is sized by the ANSI grit size.
If I recall, and it is according to the paper manufacturer, as some of their grits are different than the grit sizing in US manufactured polish. As an example, P500 grit's ANSI size is 360, and P1200 is just smaller than ANSI size 600. P numbers are for paper grit size. I'm not for sure what the grit size is, in microns, in the paper that you used, as it is according to where it is made. If you have the grits micron size, it is easier to convert. P800, or ANSI 400, is 22.8 micron. P1200 would be something like an ANSI 650, though they don't have that ANSI number, but ANSI 600 is 16 micron, and P1200 is 15 micron. P2000 grit, though, is almost as high as one can go, at 10.3 micron, and you don't need it that fine, though it will still blacken in a caustic bath. These smaller grit sizes are known as micro-grits.
This being said, one could simply run a 600 grit loose polishing wheel over it, very quickly, and it would be the same thing as what the finest factory polish would do to it, though it would take down that fine a finish.
deerslayer303
New member
OP, Try these guys. They do fantastic work. http://fordsguns.com/
I'm wanting to reblue this beat up old Model 10-6 myself that I got from J&G. It is a shooter so I'm going to strip it, polish it and give it a bath in Stump Remover (KNO3) The results seem to be pretty good .
I'm wanting to reblue this beat up old Model 10-6 myself that I got from J&G. It is a shooter so I'm going to strip it, polish it and give it a bath in Stump Remover (KNO3) The results seem to be pretty good .
I just put the barrel in a lathe and spun it at 300 rpm and used clothed backed sandpaper from Brownells in 220, 350, 400, and 600 grit to polish it. The scratches were too much for my taste so I used 1500 and 2000 grit wet/dry automotive sandpaper to remove more of the scratches. I did not use a buffer and did not want that glossy of a finish. I copied what I saw Larry Potterfield do in one of his videos. I would not know how to compare a finish from 600 grit polishing compound with 2000 grit sandpaper but I would expect the buffed surface to be smoother than that left by the sandpaper. I have Trizact sanding belts that go to 16000 grit and I would expect the finish from the 16000 grit Trizact to be about the same as the polishing compound. I use my buffer to polish stainless steel and aluminum to a mirror finish that I would never use on a gun.
Dixie Gunsmithing
Moderator Emeritus
guncrank, I think Polish-O-Ray 555 may be 600 grit anymore, and now they carry two types in Polish-O-Ray 555. I switched to Formax several years ago, and found no noticeable difference between the 555 and the Formax 600 finish. I'm not sure who makes Brownell's polish now, as they have also switched to bagged polish on the lower grits, so Formax may be the daddy of it now. However, 600 is in a bag from Formax, and Brownell's shows 555, both black and white, still in a paper tube on their website. I've not bought any 555 in a good while, and now only keep up to 400 for my tinkering.
I started using Formax, over buying form Caswell, due to pricing.
I started using Formax, over buying form Caswell, due to pricing.