Shoot 'em in the back?

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FUD

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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>... all other things being equal, action time will always be faster than reaction time ...[/quote]The above statement, which appeared in another post, got me thinking about the following situation ...

You are awaken in the middle of the night by strange noises and decided to check on the little ones to make sure that they are alright and decided to take a firearm with you "to be on the safe side".

As you leave your bedroom (it's a one story home), you encounter an intrudor with his back toward you and what "appears" to be a gun in his hand. It might be a real gun or a toy gun or something that looks like a gun but you can't be certain in the dim light and from your vantage point.

You know it isn't your spouse because you just left her in the bedroom behind you with instruction to stay near the phone and you know it isn't any of your children because they only go up to your waist and this individual is about your height.

Additionally, none of your family or friends have access to your home. WHAT DO YOU DO AT THIS POINT TO BOTH PROTECT YOURSELF AND YOUR FAMILY WHILE AT THE SAME ENSURING THAT YOUR ACTIONS WILL BE VIEWED AS 'LEGAL' IN THE EYES OF THE LAW (Police, Court, Judge, Jury, etc.)?

Do you yell out to the individual -- recognizing the fact that if he does in fact have a gun, he will, in all likelihood be able to turn and fire at you before you have a chance to react and fire back (refer back to the opening quote). Yelling to him from behind cover is not an option because if you are behind cover, you will no longer have him clearly in your sights.

Under these circumstances, would you be legally justified in shooting him in the back? What about if he isn't actually armed but only appeared to be armed?

Share what you know, learn what you don't -- FUD
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Cover him before issuing the challenge. That way you've got action on your side vs reaction on his.

After positive target ID and sight picture, I'd bark "Stop! Don't move!" If he starts to turn around, "I said don't f***ing move!!" If he continues, well... I'll probably have to get out the Simple Green. If he stops, tell him to get on his face, NOW. If he complies, well and good, I'll tell Cindy to tell the 911 droid what's up. If he doesn't comply, but just stands there, I'll give him a little non-lethal encouragement, which I'll leave to your imaginations.

On the other paw, if he runs like a scared bunny at the sound of my challenge, so much the better for all concerned.
 
Take cover (not just concealment) first. Challenge by throwing something on the floor next to him else the intruder can fire at your voice.
 
I am with Coinneach.....but would want to see his hands behind his head before askin him to kneel then go flat.

As the situation is described I can't see any justification for dumpin him from behind that would hold up before Judge n jury.

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Sam I am, grn egs n packin

Nikita Khrushchev predicted confidently in a speech in Bucharest, Rumania on June 19, 1962 that: " The United States will eventually fly the Communist Red Flag...the American people will hoist it themselves."
 
I get to be tactical crank again.

1. What are your state laws?
You should know them.
The cliche answer is better to be tried
by 12 than buried by six. Right - know
the laws also.

2. Where are your kids? If you, shoot can you
guarantee that they are not somewhere that
they will be hit? Is another BG with
them? That is crucial before you open up.

3. So you might want to challenge:

a. Experts (ahem) say you should say:
Don't Move.

The /s/ in STOP isn't that forceful
as the stopped consonant of /D/

b. Using profanity sounds macho but
'experts' say this makes you look
looney in court. It might offend
somebody. If it happens to be a good
guy, by some chance, you look crazy
for shooting a good guy and trigger
happy.

4. Looks like he has gun - that should be
good enough that if you did shoot, that
you were in reasonable fear of your life
or that of your loved ones. It works
for cops, like the Diallo case. You might
need an expert witness on such perceptions
like me. The Diallo cops had one on call
but didn't have to use her.

5. Did the spouse actually call the cops?
You should go over that scenario. She
should have called as you went out to
clear the house. Certainly when she
heard your challenge, she should have
called.

The next question, is if you stop the guy with a challenge, then what? As I read the scenario - your kids are still an unknown.

What does nonlethal encouragement mean, guy?
Physical approach to an adversary is an interesting prospect. It is one of the big tactical debates. You got the skills to immobilize someone? You can't shoot nonlethally. That is a use of deadly force.

You might actually tell him to run for his life.

Getting the drop on someone makes it even more exciting.
 
OK, Glenn, in order:

1) Unknown person in the house. I grab the Mossberg, Cindy grabs whatever pistol is handy and calls 911 on one of our two cells. I get between the kid and the bad guy, who in the original scenario is UNAWARE that I'm on to him.

2) Expert advice doesn't cover all people at all times. Do I really expect "don't move" to have as much impact as "stop"? I think the degree of difference is negligible; I could yell "Ollie-ollie-outs-in-free" for all the difference it makes. The point is, the goblin now knows that I'm aware of his presence.

3) Profanity: who the bloody hell am I trying to not offend?! Shall I be concerned with the self-esteem of the person who has violated the sanctity of my home? Would you rather I whimpered, "Um, excuse me, sir, but would you mind leaving us alone?" Being a shrink, you should know that the only thing that violent people respond positively to is threat of in-kind retaliation, and playing the meek little doormat is only an invitation to further outrages.

Regarding non-lethal encouragement, I said use your imagination. Unfortunately, you assumed that I meant I'd shoot him. Ever heard of a kick to the back of the knee? Or would that be an unwarranted assault on the poor misunderstood Victim Of Society?

I don't give two sh!ts about sounding "macho," whatever that means. It's about FORCE, Glenn. It's about INTIMIDATION. It's about demonstrating to the goblin that you CAN and WILL do whatever is necessary to resolve the conflict that HE initiated.
 
Never too old to learn ... Glenn (and others), can you give me (and other forum readers) some additional pointers based on the following answers:

1. What are your state laws? State law says that I can stand my ground and do not have to retreat from my home if I have a greater right to be there than the other individual (i.e., I have more right to be in my home than somebody who doesn't live there but I do not have more right to be there than my spouse, for example). Additionally, state law says that I can use deadly force if I am in fear of myself or members of my family being killed or seriously injuried.

My conclusion (which might not be correct) is that an unwelcomed stranger in my house in the middle of the night would give me valid reason to fear for my own safety and that of my family.

2. Where are your kids? If you, shoot can you guarantee that they are not somewhere that they will be hit? The line of fire is NOT toward the kids' bedrooms and the ASSUMPTION is that they are still in bed. No way to confirm this without making my presence known to the intrudor. What would you recommend? Is another BG with them? That is crucial before you open up. Again, no way of knowing. All I know is that I have an individual, maybe armed, with his back toward me and heading toward the direction of the kids' bedrooms. If I don't act, I risk him getting closer to my children. Not knowing if there is another BG in the house, what would you advise?

The next question, is if you stop the guy with a challenge, then what? If the BG complies with the instructions given, then we wait for the police. If he decides to run away, then that's fine too. If he advances toward me, I would ASSUME that I could still use deadly force even if he was unarmed because I am still in reasonable fear of my own safety and that of my family. I might be able to easily taken him out with a punch to the mouth or he could be an ex-seal high on drugs who could eat me for breakfast without even trying. In that particular case, not using deadly force would put my family in danger.

Comments? Further suggestions?

FUD
FUDeagle.gif
 
coinneach: You're trying not to offend the jury that will judge your actions.

Ayoob teaches: "Don't move! Drop that weapon!" Dunno what other instructors recommend.

You don't want to get in a discussion with the perp. Keep your directions short and forceful.

Can't say as I see any reason for using expletives. It doesn't add anything that isn't already said by "Don't Move!" In my opinion, you can intimidate just fine with command voice and a gun. No need for expletives which may be used against you later.

Jared
 
Oh yes, the 6 vs 12 argument. Sorry guys, but haven't you seen some of the insane stuff juries have done lately? Even in a 100% good shoot, like repelling a home invasion, your odds of coming out clean are slim.

If I have to shoot, I'm screwed regardless of what I say or how I say it, so I'll go with what works for me. No, profanity may not be strictly necessary, but coupled with my appearance and voice (usually quiet, but LOUD when need be), it's a good force multiplier. And no, I'm not going to be concerned about having to explain my choice of The Evil F Word to the jury.
 
That's not the way I read Ayoob. In "In the Gravest Extreme", Ayoob's very specific in this situation. Shoot. No challenge. In his experience (his, not mine), the BG invariably whips around and fires at the first sound.

Edit: Ayoob also specifically poo-poos the notion of a "code of the Old West" that forbade backshooting.

[This message has been edited by Jeff, CA (edited May 09, 2000).]
 
I agree with the actions stated above. Since there is a bit of a problem on how to get someone's attention from behind let me recommend racking the action on that Mossberg.

That would make me stop doing what ever I was doing and it would also let me know someone has the drop on me.

My 2 cents...

------------------
"Some people spend an entire liftime wondering if they made a difference. Marines don't have that problem."
Semper Fi
 
Jeff:

I, too, have Mas' book and read the same thing about being shot before having a chance to react! That's part of the reason why I started this trend.
 
Right - but consider that Ayoob is speaking from a cop's point of view. The DA will look very favorably on a cop in this situation. Will you or I get that special consideration?

No easy answer to this one.
 
Guy in your home at night? Presumption is he's a threat to you and your family.

Depending on your state, you may have a duty to retreat (i.e. shut the door and call 911, go out the window if he starts coming through the door.) This is dependent on whether it can be done with absolute safety to you and other innocent parties.

In TN, we don't have the BS retreat rule (I love the south!). So, here's my plan:

1. Assume relative cover. You can't get totally under cover without loosing the visual.

2. Lock him up in your sights. Aim for either the pelvic region (to break the hip) or the upper torso (to neutralize the heart, spine, lungs, etc.). Forget that center of mass baloney.

3. Issue your challenge. Mine (based on Ayoob's LFI-1 course) is "don't move!" Follow it up with "Don't touch/move that weapon!" along with "I know you're armed. If you move, I'll be forced to kill you!" You don't want him to drop/put down the weapon at this point because 1) a lot of pistols can go off if dropped (stray bullet anyone?) and 2) if he acts like he's slowly putting it down and then spins, he might get the drop on you.

4. If he fails to comply, and given your reasonable belief that he's armed, perform the indicated response (i.e. fire until you run out of ammo or he hits the ground. In either event, reload).

If you reasonably believe that someone is armed, then the fact that they are turning towards counts as an aggressive move in anyone's book.
 
STOP! DON'T MOVE! LET ME SEE YOUR HANDS!

or

DON'T MOVE! LET ME SEE YOU HANDS! SLOWLY!

or anything basic along those lines...

In most places, shooting in the scenario given will result in prosecution. The mere presence of a tresspasser doesn't warrant leathal force.
 
By the way, DAs often DON'T look favorably on cops in this situation. A sad number of cops have been charged with manslaughter/murder by a DA making political points or who thinks he's an armchair commando.
 
I don't want this to turn into a cop-bashing thread, but I've felt that way ever since I read the article about the cop who murdered his next-door neighbor over a property-line dispute. He said he thought the neighbor's beer can was a gun. The DA said that was good enough for him.
 
Jeff

Been there buddy. Back in '92, we had a sheriff's deputy who "defended his life" by shooting an unarmed (okay, guy had a walking cane) disabled Vietnam vet in the back two times at about 10 feet. Charge: failure to file a written report within 48 hours.

My hometown was so corrupt, the local politicians teach courses on "machine politics" to Democrats!
 
My personal opinion follows. No attempt should be made to read any "real-life" recommendation from it.

IF you challenge, and IF the BG turns and draws down on you, the 3 "S" rules apply. SHOOT, SHOVEL and SHUT UP. IMO, 911 should NOT be called. If a cruiser drives by, lights on, THEN call 911 & log the shoot.

Otherwise, a one-way trip to the woods for the ex-BG would be in order. Better for you, and better for your family. The BG will no longer care.

Advantages:

1) No "court", $100,000+ in atty's fees, ruined lives, etc.

2) No "retribution" from the BG's "relatives".

Just clean up the mess.
 
How dare you suggest the 3 S method! According to Joe Pesci in "Goodfellas", you have to dig your hole first. That way, you don't waste time digging when you've got to get out there, get rid of the body and get back in a hurry. And you wouldn't want to leave a hole open indefinitely, just waiting for a BG to come into your house. That'd be unsafe. :D
 
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