Shipping an antique rifle (and a project question)

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dakota.potts

New member
Another member and I have talked about a transaction for a project I'm working on. The other member has an old (model 1878) Swiss Vetterli that has had the barrel shortened among a lot of other "sporterizations" and is willing to sell for a very reasonable price. I am interested in buying. We are several states separated.

My understanding is that no FFL is required for what is legally considered an antique (it is pre-1898 and fires a black powder rimfire cartridge that is no longer available through normal channels of trade, or at all really). We just wanted to confirm this knowledge and also ask some advice on shipping.

What are the different shipping options, and which companies or services will allow you to ship an antique firearm with the least hassle?

Am I correct that it is legal to send directly party-to-party given the nature of the firearm?

Being that the barrel has been cut, if it is below 16" or decided that it is best for the project to reduce it to below 16", is this legal without becoming a title II firearm since it is an antique? What if I convert it to a centerfire cartridge? (The .41 Swiss Centerfire, still not a commercially available round and one that I am not sure has ever been produced by a major company in either rifle or ammunition). I am not planning on doing so and I don't believe the barrel to be shorter than maybe 20-22" currently, but the question did come up when discussing it with a friend. (bolded in edit for clarity, thanks for pointing that out so I could clear it up)

Thanks for your help.
 
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You need to discuss your project with the BATFE in detail, they're the people that can keep you from putting yourself in jail. They are interested in people who cut barrels below legal limits.

Don't even think about mailing your rifle until you've got a written opinion.

And, forget the silly concept that antiques are not firearms. Just ask a felon how that idea worked for him when he picked up an antique.

I may read your post wrong, but intending to manufacture a SBR without the permit is not cricket, for you or the person who mails it.

Absent your intent, you can ship antiques door to door. Your intent, however, means you need to check it out first.
 
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Maybe I should have made it clearer in my original post (titling it the project question didn't help at all).

A friend of mine brought it up in conversation when I mentioned the barrel had been cut down. I'm absolutely not wanting to cut it down any more than is 100% necessary I would have preferred the original ~30" barrel for velocity and originality.

I was simply curious by way of conversation about the topic. I by no means intend to cut something down below 16" and would get written opinion as you say if I thought it would require that. My stream of consciousness typing kind of put more emphasis on that than I intended.
 
It's my understanding that, per FEDERAL LAW, the gun is considered "antique" (pre Jan.1, 1899), and there are no laws prohibiting it from being sent interstate via common carrier or mailed via USPS (long guns may be mailed via USPS), provided that there are no laws in either state that would otherwise prohibit your friend sending it or you receiving it. As an antique, it is exempt from Federal FFL provisions.

I'm not sure if the "ammo availability" is still part of the Federal regulations or not. At one time, a long gun that was made after Dec. 31, 1898 could be sent interstate without an FFL if no ammo was available for it. A good example were the Siamese Mausers for which ammo was non-existent. However, they were made ca. 1903, and ATF decided that, even with no ammo available, they were not antique status.

Regarding antique cartridge arms with barrels shorter than 16" I'm not sure about. I believe, like pre 1899 machine guns, they're still considered NFA weapons.
 
OK, it's clear now. If the rifle is still of legal length, both barrel and overall, it's still an 'antique' and you can ship it door to door. The federal requirement is manufacture prior to 1898, not commercial availability of ammo.

Your state may have an ammo availability law, better check on that.

.41 Swiss in centerfire is commercially available, I bought some last year. Many of the original Vetterli rifles were converted to centerfire, just like the Scandinavian Rolling Blocks.
 
kilimanjaro said:
OK, it's clear now. If the rifle is still of legal length, both barrel and overall, it's still an 'antique' and you can ship it door to door. The federal requirement is manufacture prior to 1898, not commercial availability of ammo.
Click to expand...
Correct, but I don't think it's at all clear that the rifle in question is of legal length, either barrel or overall. Let's not forget that Dakota has never seen this thing, so he has to accept the seller's word.

Caveat emptor
 
I do have clear pictures of the rifle and it appears to have roughly 2/3 of the original 33" barrel. It doesn't look like something that would currently be under 16", but I have contacted the seller again to ask for visual confirmation.

Assuming it is 16"+, what is the easiest/least hassle method of shipping an antique firearm? What carriers make it easiest?

EDIT: as a point of interest, this is where I was getting ammo availability as a factor.

A. Any firearm (including any firearm with a matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap, or similar type of ignition system) manufactured in or before 1898; and

B. Any replica of any firearm described in subparagraph (A) if such replica

is not designed or redesigned for using rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition, or

uses rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition which is no longer manufactured in the United States and which is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade.

 
Aquila, all True. Hence the word, 'If', above.

He's going to have to be proactive and verify things before his buddy ships it, once he puts his hands on the package, he owns it, as they say.

People need to lose the idea that an antique cannot be a firearm, or an NFA firearm or device. The federal definition of an 'Antique' is there only to provide an exemption for the requirement that gun sales through an FFL obtain a 4473 form. The government determined that there was no need to regulate the sales of antiques, nothing more, nothing less. They are still firearms, in every sense of the word, and regulated as to carry, possession, use, size, length, etc.
 
Dakota, the regulation you quote refers to replicas for the ammunition availability test, not the pre-1898 status. An antique is tested against the date of manufacture, nothing else.

The federal requirement is the 1898 date. A Krag-Jorgensen made in 1896 is an antique, despite the .30-40 ammo it uses. One made in 1899 is not.

The regulation is written to preclude the 'loophole' of someone making a replica of an 1873 Colt revolver using modern calibers and having it pass as an antique. Make a replica in .44 Scofield, that might be legal, but not .44 Special or Magnum.
 
Thanks, kilamanjaro. I understand the difference now having gone back and read it. Just thought it might be worthwhile to post so future readers can see where the confusion came from in case they have some themselves.

So I will confirm legal length of the antique before any further movement on the purchase.

Assuming it is 16"+, who has experience with shipping one and advice on the easiest way to do so? Does it have to be declared any special way?
 
Last one I got was via FedEx, I was at work and they just left it beside the front door. Better call them up and inquire, but I believe there are no special requirements.
 
Ship USPS

The auction sites (GunBroker, AuctionArms) recommend USPS. I have shipped over 50 long guns using USPS Priority Mail with good success and no hassle. Also less expensive than UPS or FedEx. All the guns were sent to FFL holders as they were "modern" firearms. Your 1878 firearm will not require FFL nor C&R license.
There can be no markings on the package to indicate a firearm and you don't have to declare anything other than nothing hazardous or breakable.
 
OK, it's clear now. If the rifle is still of legal length, both barrel and overall, it's still an 'antique' and you can ship it door to door. The federal requirement is manufacture prior to 1898,
Click to expand...

Prior to Jan. 1, 1899, so, in or before 1898.
 
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