Shipping a Firearm

B

Bubsy

New member
As some know from my posts in another forum, I purchased a S&W Model 41 in August and had some problems with it. As per recommendations of those in this forum and the manager of my pistol range, I contacted S&W who arranged for the pistol to be shipped back to them for adjustment. They sent me a shipping label, UPS Next Day Air and explicit (and accurate) instructions as to how to return the gun, since I reside in NYC.

After a month, S&W left me a message stating that the gun was adjusted but because I live in NYC, it could only be returned to me via Registered Mail by the USPS. I spoke with my neighbor, a retired police officer, who agreed to sign for the package if I wasn't home and I spoke with my letter carrier. My letter carrier told me that what S&W was doing was illegal. According to him, only licensed FFL's are allowed to ship guns via the USPS and then, only to another FFL. I was told that when guns are shipped to a private party; including a licensed gun owner. who resides in NYC, they must be shipped by a carrier other than the USPS (DHL, UPS, Fedex etc) and by overnight air.

Time will tell if S&W's "legendary service" remains at the level I expect. But I'm concerned about their shipping policies. If I hadn't contacted my letter carrier, S&W could have shipped the firearm, my letter carrier could have signed for it and left it by the front door, and a teenager, dropping off flyers could have found it and walked off with it!

bubsy
 
The BATF says...

(F14) Who may ship handguns through the U.S. Postal Service? [Back]

Federal firearm licensees may send an unloaded handgun in the mail to another FFL in customary trade shipments. Handguns also may be mailed to any officer, employee, agent, or watchman who is eligible under 18 U.S.C. 1715 to receive pistols, revolvers, and other firearms capable of being concealed on the person for use in connection with his or her official duties.

However, postal service regulations must be followed. Any person proposing to mail a handgun must file with the postmaster, at the time of mailing, an affidavit signed by the addressee stating that the addressee is qualified to receive the firearm, and the affidavit must bear a certificate stating that the firearm is for the official use of the addressee. See the current Postal Manual for details.

The Postal Service recommends that all firearms be sent by registered mail and that no marking of any kind which would indicate the nature of the contents be placed on the outside of any parcel containing firearms. (See also Questions B7 and B8.)
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And if you want to do more research, this would be the place.
 
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Thanks for the info.I find the USPS criteria for shipment of a firearm confusing because I have a NYC "premises" license which does NOT give me a license for concealed carry.
 
I honestly don't know for sure. If it was almost anywhere but NYC it'd be simpler maybe, but you guys got some unique laws that might screw the pooch.

I'd go by a combination of whatever BATF says and whatever NYC-USPS says... and maybe whatever S&W says, they've been shipping guns for awhile. :p

Best 'O luck,
C
 
If I hadn't contacted my letter carrier, S&W could have shipped the firearm, my letter carrier could have signed for it and left it by the front door, and a teenager, dropping off flyers could have found it and walked off with it!
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Why would your letter carrier sign for your registered package and then leave it at your doorstep??? Defeats the whole point of it being a registered package.

Jim
 
Manufacturers have a form of FFL so they can legally mail handguns through the mail.

Sending a gun back from the factory to the original owner is a special case and is legal per federal law. I have no idea what restrictions NY/NYC law imposes in additional to federal law.
 
I agree with above...

why would your letter carrier sign for your registered package....

seems to me like you did what you are supposed to do and the letter carrier is just confused....
 
http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode18/usc_sec_18_00001715----000-.html


18 USC § 1715. Firearms as nonmailable; regulations

Pistols, revolvers, and other firearms capable of being concealed on the person are nonmailable and shall not be deposited in or carried by the mails or delivered by any officer or employee of the Postal Service. Such articles may be conveyed in the mails, under such regulations as the Postal Service shall prescribe, for use in connection with their official duty, to officers of the Army, Navy, Air Force, Coast Guard, Marine Corps, or Organized Reserve Corps; to officers of the National Guard or Militia of a State, Territory, Commonwealth, Possession, or District; to officers of the United States or of a State, Territory, Commonwealth, Possession, or District whose official duty is to serve warrants of arrest or commitments; to employees of the Postal Service; to officers and employees of enforcement agencies of the United States; and to watchmen engaged in guarding the property of the United States, a State, Territory, Commonwealth, Possession, or District. Such articles also may be conveyed in the mails to manufacturers of firearms or bona fide dealers therein in customary trade shipments, including such articles for repairs or replacement of parts, from one to the other, under such regulations as the Postal Service shall prescribe.
Whoever knowingly deposits for mailing or delivery, or knowingly causes to be delivered by mail according to the direction thereon, or at any place to which it is directed to be delivered by the person to whom it is addressed, any pistol, revolver, or firearm declared nonmailable by this section, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than two years, or both.
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Your NY permit does NOT allow you to send or receive a handgun through the USPS.

My Virginia concealed handgun permit does NOT either.
 
> Why would your letter carrier sign for your registered package and then leave >it at your doorstep??? Defeats the whole point of it being a registered >package.


Don't confuse "Registered" mail and "Certified" mail. Registered mail only means that a log is made by the USPS that the item was sent, by whom, and to whom it was addressed. In this case, S&W just wants to make sure that they are absolved from responsibility if the package goes astray once it leaves their hands. That's fair. Registered mail does not have to be signed by the specific recipient. So, if my letter carrier knew that I was at work but would be home in an hour or so, he might just sign for it and leave it by the door.

"Certified Mail" (with return receipt) requires a signature and has to show when it was delivered, where, and to whom. For Certified Mail, the letter carrier signing for it would defeat the purpose. For Registered Mail, it wouldn't matter since the intent of Registered mail is that the package was actually shipped not where it went or who the recipient was.

Confusing? Not as confusing as the NYC pistol permit rules that, if I'm reading them correctly, don't allow me to take my gun to my gun dealer. Maybe that's why one gun dealer I know of in NYC has a pistol range at the store. And, if I have 5 or more pistols on a premisel permit, I have to "own" a gun safe. The law doesn't seem to explicitly state that I have to USE the safe, only that I own one. I'm curious as to how they came up with 5? Why not 2 or 10? Since it is a "premises" permit, why not make the safe mandatory only after the number of guns exceeds the number of rooms in the home? What is the purpose of that safe anyway? But I'm getting off the track of the thread.
 
S & W is a LICENSED manufacturer. It is their license that allows them to mail handguns via USPS. The postal regulations quoted above only apply to unlicensed persons. Licensed manufacturers and dealers use USPS all the time to mail handguns.

It is Federal Law in 18 USC 922 that allows them to return a repaired or replacement firearm directly to you, an unlicensed (non-FFL) person:

(a) It shall be unlawful—
(2) for any importer, manufacturer, dealer, or collector licensed under the provisions of this chapter to ship or transport in interstate or foreign commerce any firearm to any person other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector, except that—
(A) this paragraph and subsection (b)(3) shall not be held to preclude a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector from returning a firearm or replacement firearm of the same kind and type to a person from whom it was received; and this paragraph shall not be held to preclude an individual from mailing a firearm owned in compliance with Federal, State, and local law to a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector;
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I think 19 USC 1715 is what NYPD makes reference to in their pistol permit documentation. They insist that except for FFL to FFL shipments, which they claim MUST be sent by USPS, ALL other firearm shipments must go by an air carrier via next day air.

bubsy
 
S & W has been in business for a long, long time. I'm sure they know what they are doing when it comes to shipping/mailing firearms, even in NYC.
 
It's been a week since I was told by S&W that my 41 was being returned to me by Registered Mail. A week seems kinda long even for Registered mail so I gave a call to S&W today. Now I'm told that they have to ship it by Registered Mail but they don't have an account set up for that with the postal service since they ship via Fedex or UPS next day air except to the five boroughs of nyc. So they now have to set up an account with the postal service in order to return my gun to me. Does that mean I am the only person from the five boroughs of NYC that sent a gun to S&W for repair? I was enthusiastic about getting a 617 next, but with this type of service from S&W, I'm having second thoughts about buying from S&W again. That Ruger Mk III is sure looking nice right now.
 
Weird. My Thompson Contender was returned to me from repair by TC via Fedex GROUND. They shipped the barrel and the frame separately. But that was to Oklahoma.
 
Good point NavyLT.

S&W should have thought about that as an option... ship the barrel separate and send both by overnight air.

another option would have been for them to ship the gun to the repair facility that IS licensed to ship it to NYC via the USPS and have them ship it from there.. or

Why didn't they just ask me for my dealer's name and address and ship it to him?


I spoke with my dealer this evening and he told me that it would be no problem for S&W to ship the gun to him. I'll let S&W know about that option tomorrow and see if they agree to it. My dealer said it shouldn't be an problem.

Maybe S&W adjusted the gun flawlessly.. time will tell. But it's frustrating waiting for them to figure out how to return it to me!

bubsy
 
Sounds to me like they got some new folks at S&W is all

If you have a FFL / dealer who is a friend than that is probably the best way to get the gun back anyway. That way no one has to wait around for the guy or gal in blue.
 
I spoke with S&W in Springfield, Mass yesterday to make sure that the instructions I gave them to ship my pistol to my FFL had been followed. They told me that the gun had already shipped to my home address in NYC by next day air the day prior. I asked for a tracking number and they said there wasn't any in their system. So I asked to be connected directly to the people who actually repaired the gun up in Maine. Why I hadn't done that before, I don't know but they agreed and I got the REAL story about what was happening and why.

Was the gun shipped ? Yes, but NOT by next day air. It was shipped by registered mail via the USPS. From what I was told, the Maine service facility ONLY repairs 22LR semi automatics. All other S&W guns including 22LR revolvers are repaired in Massachusetts. Previously, when they had received a 22LR semi auto in Maine for repair from NYC, they shipped the gun down to the Massachusetts site who then shipped it by Registered mail to NYC since the Mass site has an agreement with the USPS to ship to licensed gun owners in NYC by the USPS. However, they apparently got into some trouble by doing that (the law says the gun has to be shipped DIRECTLY to the owner once repaired (or to an owner designated FFL) and can't make a "stopover" in Massachusetts on its way to NYC. This was the first 22LR semi automatic that they received for repair from NYC since the new rule went into effect (I find that hard to believe but maybe it is true) and since they don't have an agreement with the USPS to ship the gun to NYC from Maine they had to take some special steps to get the gun shipped by the USPS to me.

Hopefully, it will arrive safely. But I've learned my lesson.

If anyone lives in NYC and has a S&W 22LR semi-auto, let your FFL dealer ship it to S&W. It'll save a lot of hassle and frustration.

My next gun, the 617, shouldn't be a problem since that one is repaired in Massachusetts. But if that one needs repair, I'll still ship it through my FFL dealer.

bubsy
 
Don't be too hard on S&W. It's NYC and all their stupid gun laws and regulations. I don't think there's another place in the coutry that's as bad as that.
For what it's worth, I always ship from UPS and have never had any trouble going or coming, no matter what state I lived in at the time.
 
Like I said in another thread, I got my S&W 41 back today and I'm going to take it to the range tomorrow. But S&W shipped it back to me with one of the magazines now defective that wasn't defective when I shipped it to them. A little thing, maybe, and I'm sure they'll replace it, but annoying anyway.

Also annoying is that S&W is the ONLY source I've spoken to that insists that a gun sent to NYC must be sent by the USPS. EVERY other source I've spoken to, including NYPD, says that a gun can NEVER be sent by the USPS unless it is between two licensed FFLs. Everyone (except S&W) insists that guns returned to gun owners in NYC are to be shipped the same way that they are shipped anywhere else in the US, Next Day Air by a carrier other than the USPS (Fedex, UPS, etc). My letter carrier told me that it's lucky that I contacted her and that I know her because the package's labeling and weight made it fairly clear as to its contents and by law, the USPS would have to file a report about illegal transport of a gun. The package said it was from Smith and Wesson and did NOT make reference to a repair center or the fact that it was repaired.



I'm still not sure where S&W heard of this exception for NYC. I'd like to read it if anyone ever finds it.

bubsy
 
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