Shipping a firearm

F

fairview mick

New member
What, exactly are the rules of shipping a hand gun from a private owner to an FFL?. Does the gun have to be declared, and does it have to go overnight? I went to the fedex station at the Cleveland Airport and sent a gun to Alaska on a discounted shipping. I told them it was a hand gun, and the woman said "I don't care" The next time I tried to do the same thing, another agent told me that was illegal. I recently shipped a hand gun from Cleveland to Mo. just regular Fed Ex. The FFL that received my gun was irate because I didn't ship it overnight. The people at Fed Ex/Kinkos have never asked me what I'm shipping. As far as insurance, my policy covers my gun until it is delivered at the destination. The FFL said it was illegal and that the ATF could come down on me or him or both for that??????????
Any one out there help me???
Mickey
 
This question comes up from time to time and maybe someday they could put a sticky note on the boards here for people to look at, maybe there are too many vaiables to do that, I dunno.

With that being said, when I started to sell a few guns on GB, I took my shipping info from that site and found it to be very well described. To the best of my knowledge:

A private citizen may ship a handgun to a FFL using only overnight express, whether it's FedEx, or UPS.

Only FFL to FFL may use the USPS when shipping handguns.

Private citizens may use the USPS when shipping long guns as long as it's going to an FFL.

You must declare that the item you are shipping is a firearm/handgun. Whether you are using a common carrier like FedEx/UPS, or if you are using the USPS.

When in doubt go to that particular carriers website and read. Sometimes the people working there don't know their own rules so be prepared to deal with that.
 
fairview mick said:
The FFL that received my gun was irate because I didn't ship it overnight. The people at Fed Ex/Kinkos have never asked me what I'm shipping. As far as insurance, my policy covers my gun until it is delivered at the destination. The FFL said it was illegal and that the ATF could come down on me or him or both for that??????????
Any one out there help me???
Mickey
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Relax, you did nothing wrong or illegal. There is no law that requires overnight shipping. That is only a company policy of some carriers. Also, since you shipped the firearm to an FFL holder, notification to the carrier that you were shipping a firearm was not legally required.
 
A private citizen may ship a handgun to a FFL using only overnight express, whether it's FedEx, or UPS.
Click to expand...
This is only by FEDEX and UPS policy, not by law.

EOD Guy is correct. It is only UPS and FED EX policy that handguns go overnight express. He is also correct that notification to the carrier, according to Federal law, is only required if not going to an FFL. Again UPS or FEDEX policy may be that notification is required, but not Federal Law.

I sent a Contender handgun back to T/C for repairs. The Fedex guy actually opened the package and looked at it (with my permission). He sealed it back up and asked ground or air? I said ground. What the heck, it's against FEDEX policy, but who cares? The Fedex guy offered and I accepted, he may get fired, but I couldn't go to jail, so I don't care when it saves me over $50 in shipping. I know I would have been SOL if Fedex lost it.
 
great need for a sticky

no doubt this topic need a good sticky with the actual facts. In this thread I see the reference to USPS for a handgun from FFL to FFL. Anyone care to provide specifics on the truth or fallacy of that statement?
 
Sure, an FFL walks in to the post office with a packaged up handgun or longgun and sends it to another FFL via priority mail. Oh, and fills out a PS form 1508.

Here is the link:
http://pe.usps.gov/text/pub52/pub52c4_003.html#NL508_15

The quoted text below is actually part of a table. You want Exhibit 432.1:
Unloaded Handgun
Mailer must be licensed manufacturer or dealer mailing to another licensed manufacturer or dealer. Manufacturers or dealers must complete PS form 1508, Statement by Shipper of firearms, and file with postmaster.
Postmasters may forward an unsatisfactory mailer statement to their RCSC for a ruling.
 
good link

That is an informative link on the USPS site regarding handguns. It appears a FFL holder can use the mail to ship a handgun to another FFL holder.
 
Exact Rules From FEDEX

Firearms

1. FedEx Ground will transport and deliver firearms (excluding handguns) as defined by the United States Gun Control Act of 1968, between areas served in the U.S., but only between:
1. Licensed importers; licensed manufacturers; licensed dealers; licensed collectors; law enforcement agencies of the U.S. or any department or agency thereof; and law enforcement agencies of any state or any department, agency or political subdivisions thereof; or
2. Where not prohibited by local, state and federal law, from individuals to licensed importers, licensed manufacturers or licensed dealers (and return of same).
2. If your shipment contains firearms, select the Direct Signature Required or Adult Signature Required Delivery Signature Option, depending on the requirements of your shipment. See the Delivery Signature Options section for details. Firearms shipments are not eligible for signature release, driver release or indirect delivery.
3. FedEx Ground cannot ship or deliver firearms C.O.D.
4. Upon presenting the package for shipment, the person tendering the shipment to FedEx Ground is required to notify FedEx Ground that the package contains a firearm. The outside of the package must not be marked, labeled or otherwise identify that the package contains a firearm.
5. The shipper and recipient must be of legal age as identified by applicable law.
6. The shipper and recipient are required to comply with all applicable government regulations and laws, including those pertaining to labeling. The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives can provide assistance.
7. FedEx Ground will transport small-arms ammunition when packed and labeled in compliance with local, state and federal law, and the Hazardous Materials section of this Service Guide. Ammunition is an explosive and must be shipped separately as hazardous materials. You agree not to ship loaded firearms or firearms with ammunition in the same package.
8. FedEx Ground will not accept for transport handguns, assembled or disassembled.




Also Federal Law States that: A Non-licensee may ship a firearm by common or contract carrier to a resident of his or her own state or to a licensee in any state. A common or contract carrier must be used to ship a handgun. In addition, Federal Law requires that the carrier be notified that the shipment contains a firearm and prohibits common or contract carriers from requiring or causing any label to be placed on any package indicating that it contains a firearm.

[18 U.S.C. 922(a)(2)(A), 922 (a) (3), 922(a)(5) and 922 (e), 27 CFR 478.31 and 478.30]


NavyLT:
It is only UPS and FED EX policy that handguns go overnight express. He is also correct that notification to the carrier, according to Federal law, is only required if not going to an FFL. Again UPS or FEDEX policy may be that notification is required, but not Federal Law.
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Make sure to double check the law before you say it isn't federal law. My statement comes straight from the ATF Federal Firearms Regulations Reference Guide. Page 178 (B8)
 
Last edited:
JDD308 said:
Also Federal Law States that: A Non-licensee may ship a firearm by common or contract carrier to a resident of his or her own state or to a licensee in any state. A common or contract carrier must be used to ship a handgun. In addition, Federal Law requires that the carrier be notified that the shipment contains a firearm and prohibits common or contract carriers from requiring or causing any label to be placed on any package indicating that it contains a firearm.

[18 U.S.C. 922(a)(2)(A), 922 (a) (3), 922(a)(5) and 922 (e), 27 CFR 478.31 and 478.30]


NavyLT:

Quote:
It is only UPS and FED EX policy that handguns go overnight express. He is also correct that notification to the carrier, according to Federal law, is only required if not going to an FFL. Again UPS or FEDEX policy may be that notification is required, but not Federal Law.


Make sure to double check the law before you say it isn't federal law. My statement comes straight from the ATF Federal Firearms Regulations Reference Guide. Page 178 (B8)
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Federal law does not state that the carrier must be notified. The law states that the carrier must be notified if shipping to other than a licensee. You are quoting a FAQ answer which is not complete. You have to go to the law or regulation for the complete quote. Here is the citation from 27CFR.

TITLE 27--ALCOHOL, TOBACCO PRODUCTS, AND FIREARMS

CHAPTER II--BUREAU OF ALCOHOL, TOBACCO, FIREARMS, AND EXPLOSIVES,
DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE

PART 478_COMMERCE IN FIREARMS AND AMMUNITION--Table of Contents

Subpart C_Administrative and Miscellaneous Provisions

Sec. 478.31 Delivery by common or contract carrier.

(a) No person shall knowingly deliver or cause to be delivered to
any common or contract carrier for transportation or shipment in
interstate or foreign commerce to any person other than a licensed
importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector,
any package or other container in which there is any firearm or
ammunition without written notice to the carrier that such firearm or
ammunition is being transported or shipped
Click to expand...
 
wrong again

just spoke with ATF. they say the rule is you can not ship to anyone but an ffl. but you are required to disclose the package contents.

any way it better to be safe than sorry.

if you have any questions call the ATF.

just remember ignorance of the law is not an excuse or defense.
 
Of course, the ATF is ALWAYS right and they will ALWAYS tell you the truth - as the person on the other end of the phone sees it. Did you get the person's name you spoke to? They were grossly misinformed.

they say the rule is you can not ship to anyone but an ffl
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Even the ATF faq, from the ATF themselves says differently:
(B8) May a nonlicensee ship a firearm by common or contract carrier? [Back]
A nonlicensee may ship a firearm by a common or contract carrier to a resident of his or her own State or to a licensee in any State. A common or contract carrier must be used to ship a handgun. In addition, Federal law requires that the carrier be notified that the shipment contains a firearm and prohibits common or contract carriers from requiring or causing any label to be placed on any package indicating that it contains a firearm.
[18 U.S.C. 922(a)(2)(A), 922(a) (3), 922(a)(5) and 922(e), 27 CFR 478.31 and 478.30]

I can, by US Code, ship to a resident of my own state, without an FFL - but none of the carriers will take the shipment, even though it is legal.

EOD Guy posted the actual FEDERAL LAW regarding notification of shipment of firearms, it is only required BY FEDERAL LAW to noify if NOT shipping to an FFL.

I'll bet you didn't ask the person on the phone from the ATF to quote you the FEDERAL LAW and to expand upon the actual written law.

And, I disagree, it is not always better to be safe than sorry. It is better to know the LAW and follow the LAW and not what some person on the other end of a phone thinks in their head what the law says.
 
Still Correct

JDD308 said:
just spoke with ATF. they say the rule is you can not ship to anyone but an ffl. but you are required to disclose the package contents.

any way it better to be safe than sorry.

if you have any questions call the ATF.

just remember ignorance of the law is not an excuse or defense.
Click to expand...

Sorry but you got the wrong information from a local office. I have a letter from BATF Hq in DC that states that notification is only required when shipping to a nonlicensee. There are several exceptions in the law and regulations that allow for shipment to unlicensed persons.

Also, letters of clarification from regulating agencies are a defense. I have hundreds of such letters in my files at work from several different agencies and have always had them accepted when shown to an auditor.
 
Actual Regulation

NavyLT
Of course, the ATF is ALWAYS right and they will ALWAYS tell you the truth
Click to expand...

I have to agree with him on that quote. It is the government.


Sorry but you got the wrong information from a local office. I have a letter from BATF Hq in DC that states that notification is only required when shipping to a nonlicensee. There are several exceptions in the law and regulations that allow for shipment to unlicensed persons.
Click to expand...



Here is the exact Quote from Title 27 478.31 Delivery by common or contract carrier.

§ 478.31 Delivery by common or contract carrier.

(a) No person shall knowingly deliver or cause to be delivered to any common or contract carrier for transportation or shipment in interstate or foreign commerce to any person other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector, any package or other container in which there is any firearm or ammunition without written notice to the carrier that such firearm or ammunition is being transported or shipped: Provided, That any passenger who owns or legally possesses a firearm or ammunition being transported aboard any common or contract carrier for movement with the passenger in interstate or foreign commerce may deliver said firearm or ammunition into the custody of the pilot, captain, conductor or operator of such common or contract carrier for the duration of that trip without violating any provision of this part.

(b) No common or contract carrier shall require or cause any label, tag, or other written notice to be placed on the outside of any package, luggage, or other container indicating that such package, luggage, or other container contains a firearm.

(c) No common or contract carrier shall transport or deliver in interstate or foreign commerce any firearm or ammunition with knowledge or reasonable cause to believe that the shipment, transportation, or receipt thereof would be in violation of any provision of this part: Provided, however, That the provisions of this paragraph shall not apply in respect to the transportation of firearms or ammunition in in-bond shipment under Customs laws and regulations.

(d) No common or contract carrier shall knowingly deliver in interstate or foreign commerce any firearm without obtaining written acknowledgement of receipt from the recipient of the package or other container in which there is a firearm: Provided, That this paragraph shall not apply with respect to the return of a firearm to a passenger who places firearms in the carrier's custody for the duration of the trip.

[33 FR 18555, Dec. 14, 1968. Redesignated at 40 FR 16385, Apr. 15, 1975, and amended by T.D. ATF–354, 59 FR 7112, Feb. 14, 1994; T.D. ATF–361, 60 FR 10786, Feb. 27, 1995]


Highlighted Shows that no one can ship without it being received by licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector.

Red Highlighted is to show that there has to be a signature required by person receiving package which according to law has to be a licensed dealer.


Basically we can argue all day long about the interpretation of law, but what matters is what the guys in black interpret when they come knocking on the door. LMAO

The site where I got my info:http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/tex...v8&view=text&node=27:3.0.1.2.3.3.1.13&idno=27

But oh Well. Have a good day guys.
 
Actually, your own quote proves you wrong.

(a) No person shall knowingly deliver or cause to be delivered to any common or contract carrier for transportation or shipment in interstate or foreign commerce to any person other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector, any package or other container in which there is any firearm or ammunition without written notice to the carrier that such firearm or ammunition is being transported or shipped:
Click to expand...

The law says that if I ship to a person other than a licensee, I must provide written notice. Presumably, if I am shipping to a licensee, then I am not required to provide written notice.
 
Yep. And the signature required statement is merely a check box on the shipping form "Adult signature required" which may be checked for any shipment for which a signature is desired.

It has been my general observation that this check block is largely ignored by the drivers doing deliveries, however!
 
Tomato & Tomatoe

See but the fact remains it doesn't matter how we interpret the law. It all comes down to how the ATF thinks.

(a) No person shall knowingly deliver or cause to be delivered to any common or contract carrier for transportation or shipment in interstate or foreign commerce to any person other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector, any package or other container in which there is any firearm or ammunition without written notice to the carrier that such firearm or ammunition is being transported or shipped.


See the wording of the law is however you want to see it. As you can there are not two separate sentences here.

No person shall knowingly deliver or cause to be delivered to any common or contract carrier for transportation or shipment in interstate or foreign commerce to any person other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector,any package or other container in which there is any firearm or ammunition without written notice to the carrier that such firearm or ammunition is being transported or shipped. SEE THE COMMA? This is where we as gun owners can get in trouble because they want to put a little comma. Maybe someone should teach the ATF to learn english and punctuation.



The Law is referring to any package with a gun or ammo cannot be delivered by a common carrier without written notice and can not be delivered to anyone but a licensed dealer.
 
I give up. I guess every person who has ever taken his firearm to FEDEX or UPS and sent it back to the manufacturer for repairs, including myself, is now a felon because we didn't notify the carrier in writing it was a firearm. I simply took it to Fedex, told the guy at the counter it was a gun being sent back to T/C for repairs. He asked if he could open the box. He did, looked at it, sealed it back up and sent it on it's way. No WRITTEN notification given, because it was not required. Heck, decent companies like Smith and Wesson will send you a prepaid shipping label and tell you to slap that sucker on a box, call FEDEX or UPS to pick it up at your door and send that firearm to them on their dime, but they must be doing some WRITTEN notification to the shipper as well without the customer knowing it, because, it is after all, the customer who is actually shipping the firearm regardless of who is paying for the stamp...

If it makes you feel more comfortable to give written notification, then go ahead. Now that I've told my story I guess the men in black will be busting my door down any minute now.
 
And what about the ammunition? In your post you said that I couldn't send ammunition to anyone other than a licensed dealer?!?
 
From UPS themselves:

I guess UPS doesn't know the Federal law as explained here by JDD308. UPS only requires VERBAL notification and only for HANDGUNS:

http://www.ups.com/content/us/en/resources/prepare/guidelines/firearms.html

When you are shipping a package that contains a handgun, you must verbally notify the UPS driver or UPS Customer Center clerk.
Click to expand...

So I guess UPS is a willing accomplice to all of us breaking the WRITTEN notification Federal law?
 
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