Seriously looking at .357Sig vs. .40S&W

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ump45

New member
I need some serious advice. To start with, I am a basically a beginning shooter and I am looking into purchasing my first firearm. I've done quite a bit of knowledge seeking over the last 6 months. I've looked at everything from glock, to CZ, to HK, to Walther, and Berretta.

I've narrowed down to a few choices, all of them sigs. I had to exclude the 226 because it's too large for reasonable concealement. What remains is:

1. p228 (9mm)
2. p229 (either .357Sig or .40S&W)

My first question is, which one is the more deadly cartridge, .357Sig or .40S&W? If you do a simple kinetic energy calculation, the .357 delivers alot more. But kinetic energy is only one small consideration in the big picture. The .40 may fire at a slower velocity, but the bullet is larger and heavier, which may mean that it creates a larger and more damaging wound track. But then we have to come back to what matters even more than ballistics. Accuracy and shot placement. I've heard that the .357Sig is more difficult to handle than the .40S&W in terms of muzzle flip and recoil. So what do you guys think? .357Sig or .40S&W? Oh, by the way, cost of ammo is not a consideration for me. But then I know some of you are going to say it doesn't really matter which one I get, because I can switch barrels between the two. But that's not the answer I'm looking for, I want to know which one is a superior cartridge for personal defense. (Why did the Secret Service choose the p229 in .357Sig instead of .40S&W?) (Why did the FBI choose the .40S&W instead of the .357Sig, even though they did pick glock 22/23 not Sig, I wonder why they chose that cartridge.)

I'm thinking of getting the p228 in 9mm for my wife, since she's recoil sensitive.
 
As far as I can tell recoil-wise it is a total wash between .40S&W and .357 Sig. Unscientific anecdotes (mine included) suggest that pistols in .357 Sig tend to be more accurate than .40S&W. From a SigSauer reliability should be a toss-up either way. Personally, I would lean towards the .357 Sig.
 
Pretty much a ditto on CastleBravo's comments. Either cartridge is suitable for self defense. The 357 SIG will be louder and muzzle flash can be substantially greater, depending upon the ammo in question. It shoots flatter than the .40, and is often more accurate, although perhaps marginally in a particular gun. Penetration is greater in some loadings.

Personally, I like the 357 SIG better, and use it for carry. But, my 357 SIG pistols have .40 S&W barrels as well, because when travelling (which I do often) I've found that .40 ammo is often more common, esp. in remote locations. It's not usually an issue, but if I decide to head to a range or am somehow limited in the amount of ammo I can check for plane trips, it's nice to be able to buy and shoot .40 if I need to. So, I always pack the spare .40 barrrel.

Agencies factor in all kinds of things when choosing a cartidge, and I'm sure there are TFL folks much better equipped to answer that question than I am. But I wouldn't let the nuances of those decisions influence you too much.

Having said all of that, don't rule out the 228 for yourself. There's nothing wrong with 9 mm for self defense, contrary to all of the "my caliber can beat up your caliber" chest-thumping that people like to engage in. It's unquestionably easier to learn to shoot with, esp. if you're shooting the .357 SIG indoors (it's easy to develop a blink or flinch when you fire it indoors). Maybe get a 228, learn the fundamentals, and then add the 229 ...?

BTW, narrowing it down to SIGs shows you have excellent taste in pistols!
 
The .357 sig is a harder hitting round. The greater velocity of the .357 sig means that a hollow point round will expand more efficiently and reliably than the slower .40 round. Penetration is also deeper and more assured with the .357 sig than the .40. Will all this make much of a difference in actual stopping power between the two? Probably not very much at all. The .40 has plenty of stopping power of it's own and a little better shot follow through than the .357.

What may be more relevant to self-defense user is the usability of the caliber. The .357 sig is one of the loudest with the brightest flash of the self-defense calibers, while the .40 is one of the quietest with the least flash. Since many incidents take place at night, and virtually none with hearing protection, you may want to take this into consideration.

My next purchase is going to be a .40 Glock which I will carry for self-defense specifically because of the flash bang. I'll by an aftermarket .357 sig barrel as well for fun on the range (because I do like the round) but not for self-defense.
 
I think the two rounds are evenly matched. Their numbers are very close and both have their advantages when comparing 125grain 357s and 135 or 165 grain 40s. In most tests Ive seen both penetrate about the same, the 40sw uses weight to achieve this while the 357 uses speed. In expansion tests they also seem evenly matched. The 40 relies on its size and large HP cavity to expand while the 357 once again uses its speed. IMO the two are so similar in all aspects of ballistics that it would be very difficult to declare either the "better" round.
 
The decision matrix on this issue is very simple:

If YOU have to buy/reload the ammo, get a .40


If SOMEONE ELSE is buying the ammo, get a .357 Sig.


If you do go with the .357, get better ear protection.


shoot often, shoot safely


Jay

P.S. By the way, I know someone who carries an agency issued .357 Sig 229 on duty, but carries a Glock 19 on his own time.
 
ump45 . . .

I'm a confirmed believer in the .45 ACP. However, your question focuses on the .357 Sig versus the .40 S&W. First, to ensure accuracy, please remember that the .357 Sig is really a 9mm round. In fact, it is a .355 diameter projectile, with the "357" label only a marketing device to suggest it achieves the performance of a .357 magnum -- which, factually, it does not. In 124 grain loadings, I suggest the .357 Sig is not very different from many +P 9x19s.

This said, I prefer the .357 Sig to the .40 S&W due to accuracy. To illustrate, I have a Sig P-226 in .357 Sig with a .40 S&W Bar-Sto barrel. I consistently achieve tighter groups with the .357 Sig than with the .40 S&W fired from the same autoloader. My experience is not unique.

To conclude, both the .40 S&W and the .357 Sig -- and the 9x19, for that matter -- are perfectly acceptable defensive calibers. ACCURATE SHOT PLACEMENT is the principal element in defensive effectiveness. Accordingly, I would borrow/rent the handguns you are most interested in to ascertain if one provides consistently better accuracy. If one does, that's the one to buy.

Incidentally, if you really want a "stopper" in a semiautomatic round, consider the proven .45 ACP.
;)
 
In 124 grain loadings, I suggest the .357 Sig is not very different from many +P 9x19s.
Click to expand...

Hmmm... how do you figure that? 125gr .357 Sig goes 1350-1425 FPS. What kind of 125gr .357 Magnum loads beats THAT? Remember that those 1450-1500 FPS advertised figures are from 6-8" test barrels, not the under 5" the .357 Sig figures are from. Goofball handloads don't count, either, so what do you base your claim on? :rolleyes:

125gr .357 Sig DOES match the external ballistics of the 125gr .357 Magnum, if not exceed it, from equivalent barrel lengths. Peroid. This has been documented time and time again with real chrono data. Read 'em and weep. :eek:

http://www.greent.com/40Page/ammo/357/357accuracy.htm

Of course, you can't get 158-200gr loads in .357 Sig for use against critters like you can for .357 Magnum. But there aren't any 15-round .357 Magnums that I know of either. :D
 
Don't want to muddy the water, but I have a thought to share.

My first handgun was a SIG P229 40S&W. Liked it then, like it now. However, I found that for me it was not easily concealed. Bought a SIG P245 (.45acp), same problem.

SIGs are kinda blocky. So are HKs, Glocks, and Berrettas. Some guys can conceal them, some can't. Can you?

I ended up with an officer's size 1911. Thinner is good.:)

The .45acp makes a bigger hole, with no more recoil than the .40S&W.
 
Serious defensive cartridges begin with t he number "4."

;)

Coming from there, the .40 S&W is your only option. Those defending themselves with cartridges begining with the number 3" or lower should hold their pistol up as an albeit tiny shield and run away.

:D

Kenetic energy? Forget about it. We're talking pistol ammunition here, folks...

Oh, and the construction of a hollow point has as much if not more to do with how it expands then the velocity thaparticular hollow point happens to be traveling at. So faster does not equate to better expansion per se. Besides, if the hollow point fully expands and remains intact, it doesn't matter much how fast we are talking about, now does it?
 
My only background on this topic is reading as much as I can on the topic (eg: http://www.firearmstactical.com ) and applying a critical eye.

I believe that: guaranteed "stopping power" comes from: a) destroying the brain or upper central nervous system, and/or b) destroying enough tissue & organs to cause bleed-out, then you want to have sufficient penetration (at least 10-12") and as much expansion as possible. The ability to hit what you are aiming is the foremost priority. And it helps to be able to make multiple hits quickly.

Going back to mechanical terminal performance in terms of penetration and expansion, the best loads from 9x19, .40SW, and .357SIG all perform almost the same. They all perform closely because a well-designed bullet will expand and penetrate properly at the correct velocity for that load.

Here is a good thread on terminal performance:
http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=77470

Given that, .40SW is cheaper than .357SIG to shoot. And lots of shooting is how you shoot fast & accurate.

-z
 
Being a 357 sig fan I must admit the difference in stopping power between the two is next to nothing. Both expand to about the same diameters with the best loads with a slight edge going to the 40 sw in expansion and a slight edge in penitration going to the 357 sig if bullets are simular. The 357 sig has more accuracy both at close and long range and thats what won me over. The 40 with 165 and 155 grain loads is a good caliber with great stopping power. The 357 sig has the accuracy advantage and hard cover penitration advantage.
PAT
 
AR-10

The 45 does not make a bigger whole than a good 40 or 357 sig load. And it has a smaller stretch cavity. You should have tried a sig 239 if you wanted thin. The 45 is a good round too but it offers NOTHING over the 40 and 357 sig unless +p loads are used to get it into 10mm territory.
PAT
 
355sigfan - Looking at the FBI data, the best .45ACP's have better average wound volume (penetration * expansion) than the rest:

http://web.demigod.org/~zak/firearms/fbi-pistol.php?sort=grade1

I carry 9x19 and .40SW. My Glock 32 (.357SIG) wears a factory .40SW barrel for carry because I can practice more with it and shoot it better. I would prefer to carry the same number of .45ACP rounds in the same size pistol, but they won't fit. It's a packaging tradeoff.

-z
 
My understanding of the 357 Sig is that it is a 9MM bullet in a necked down .40 S&W casing. Has anyone tried the same bullet in a necked down 10MM casing? Now that would have some punch!
 
Get the .40 S&W pistol and then purchase a .357 Sig conversion kit. :D

.40 S&W can be pretty hard hitting. I carry Cor-Bon 135-grain .40 S&W JHP's in my Taurus PT101. 135 grains at 1350 f.p.s. ain't too bad. The 5" barrel of my Taurus should give it an even higher velocity.

Frankly, for a first gun, I wouldn't get a semi-auto. I know they're cool, but you would do well to get a .357 magnum revolver. Wait a year or so later before you invest in a semi-auto.

In all reality, both the .40 S&W and the .357 Sig will kill your attacker, or home invader, equally well. However, it is a whole lot easier to find cheap .40 S&W ammo to go plinking.
 
smithz

The FBI only caculates perminate cavity not stretch cavity. The 45 is a good stopper it rivals the 357 mag it gets its stopping power from its crush cavity. The 357 mag is also a great stopper it gets its power from its temporary stretch cavity. Both work great is one better than the other I don't think so. 45's work 357 also work. They just work differently.
PAT
 
355sigfan,

A P239 has a slide the same width as a P229, does it not? I looked at a P239 the day I bought the P245. The sizes were close to identical.

A 1911 is thinner.

In pistol calibers, a fully expanded big bullet makes a larger hole than a fully expanded small bullet.

All the calibers discussed here are sufficient with reasonable shot placement. I don't care much for the .357SIG round myself, but that's a personal thing.

I've bought half a dozen different handguns to carry. The one that gets chosen most frequently is a S&W model 60 five shot .357Mag. Of the handguns I own, it's the smallest and easiest to conceal. The point I am trying to make is this. What looks good in the gunshop may not be so easy to conceal when you strap it on.
 
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