Serious question for those that live in Predator country (animal variety)

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Pthfndr

New member
Quick background. I live in the Sierra Nevada mountains. My neighbor paid me a visit tonight. Apparently his two
dogs, small border collies I think, were attacked. One killed rather gruesomely and the other's neck almost
severed. No question it was some kind of animal that did it. I have three large dogs and I'm not quite as worried
about them as they stick together like glue. But I am still concerned as dogs can be more brave than smart and I
do walk around at night. And big cat sightings are not uncommon and in fact a woman was killed by a mountain
lion a few years ago.

My question is, should I encounter this animal in my "yard", what would be my best choice of firearm and
ammunition. I'm assuming it is some kind of cat or possibly a large wild dog. My current choices of firearms in
inventory are:

AR .223 (M4/Aimpoint, 20"/4x21 scope, 20"/iron sites)
Mini 30 ranch rifle 7.62x39
FAL .308
Remington .22
Colt .45acp
Sig P220 .45acp
Beretta 92FS 9mm
Harrington & Richardson single shot .410

I do normally carry a side arm openly when walking at night, and it is not unknown for people to "plink" from their
porches where I live.

I put this here instead of Hunting as I will not strictly speaking be hunting what ever it is.
 
My personal choice was not on your list; a 12 ga with #1 buckshot. After that, I would choose the Mini 30.
 
Since you're concerned with self-defense rather than hunting, I'd go along with the Mini-30. I'd definitely load with soft pointed bullets. If you anticipate a possible close-range encounter, this gun is handier than the FAL, and the bullets are heavier than the .223.

If it's a mountain lion, they are not strictly nocturnal. If you tend to be around the house a good bit during the day, I'd keep the rifle you're best with, close by. Depending on how good you are with the FAL, the .308 is your best cartridge.

If you are going to rely on a pistol, I suggest your present guns are marginal. I would maybe trade up to either a .357 or a .44 Mag.

Local experience with lions trying for house dogs at a residence indicates that the first shots will drive off a lion, hit or miss.

We had one case where a woman shot a young lion (with a snubby .38, through an open window) which was after her house dog--with mama lion and another cub present. The next morning, the mama and remaining cub were back! The husband missed, several times, with a Mini-14. I leave the community comments to your imagination...

We had another case where a lion went into an otherwise empty house and grabbed a dog which was tied in an open utility room.

Lions tend to think *they* are top of the food chain. They tend to attack from behind, and kill by attaining a choke-hold. Not fun.

FWIW, Art
 
Art,

While I was overseas a cougar in Florida began to rummage in garbage cans, attack house pets, and finally humans. Apparently it had been crippled (probably hit by a car) and could not catch its usual game.

My Dad and a neighbor finally caught it in a crossfire and killed it with shotguns. Apparently it took quite a bit of killin'!

I don't know squat about mountain lions but your comment about them attacking from behind reminded me of a Discovery channel program about tigers in India.

Tigers also attack from behind. To prevent attacks, the natives made human-looking face masks and wore them on the back of the head. (Quit laughing, I'm being serious here!)

This apparently worked so well that one tiger hunter wore a mask on the back of his head and covered his face with a veil. He could see through it but it hid his face.

Sure enough, the tiger attacked him from the veiled side and he shot it and killed it.

By the way, effectively snap shooting a tiger attacking from nearby brush is outside my area of desire and expertise (and cajones!)!
-----

Pathfinder,

Having stated I have no expertise in this area, and the previous info destroying any credibility I might have had ( :)), I don't believe I'd go anywhere, especially at night, without those three large dogs!

I live in brushy country so here I'd carry the 12ga and a .44 magnum (or .45 Long Colt). In open country I'd guess I'd carry a rifle during daylight and the shotgun at night.

Hmmm. Better just listen to Art! ;)
 
Be careful,

Here in Colorado where we've had a recent Lion - induced fatality ( maybe 2) YOU CANNOT SHOOT A LION for attacking your dog.

Lions have been prowling boulder county regularly for years now, due to the fact that boulder is FULL of SLOW garden fed deer and smaller game like poodles, cats, etc.

HOWEVER, one boulder resident lost a 130 pound wolf hybrid to a lion in a matter of seconds. Lions are predators and they do their job VERY well.

Lions tend to be secretive and wary animals, and i hunt in lion country every year (in fact a lion ate the gut pile of the deer my dad shot this season HOURS after he shot it), but I have NEVER seen one. I hope i do someday.. hopefully from a safe distance. ;)

Lions are :
1. FAST
2. Well camoflagued
3. Small
4. lean (no or little fat)

This means you need a small fast handling gun, one capable of a follow up shot, but you do not have to worry about serious penetration. In colorado you MUST use a rifle of 24 caliber or larger for Lion. Shotguns filled with shot are not legal. There is NOT much mass on a lion.. its the size of a big dog, but MUCH better armed. Like the bear there isn't much skull above the level of the eyes so a chest/face shot is the MOST likely to stop the animal quickly. Use a soft pointed expanding (hunting) bullet.

the mini 30 might be a good bet. Leave the scope off, you'll likely be shooting at a moving target.

For the record I'm NOT A FAN of shooting predators, (including lions, wolves, bears, coyotes, badgers, wolverines, etc etc etc) but predators that are "imprinting" on humans, (eating garbage, entering homes, etc) are NOT acting like secretive wild animals SHOULD act. In a best case scenario they should be darted at relocated IMHO. Howwever, there is a three strike rule in MANY places reguarding bears. # time the animal comes into determined contact (raiding garbage, house breaking, etc) the animal is destroyed.

You really SHOULD CHECK with your local game & Fish dept. before you take ANY action, lest you risk massive fines and /or jail time for shooting a lion.

Like I said in colorado to shoot a lion it has to be stalking /attacking a PERSON. I'm pretty sure I've been stalked once in the high country.. just one of those feelings you get. I'm an experienced hunter/outdoorsman and was hunting in prime elk country near red feather lakes, I'd seen fresh lion sign all week. Had hunted that area many many times but on THAT day.. something was giving me the willys. I took a LONG look around, slung my rifle and drew my handgun (44 mag) and walked out slowly keeping my eyes open and continually checking my six. Never saw the lion... but I'm SURE it was watching me. ive never had that feeling before or since but I'm POSITIVE one of the most successful predators in colorado was giving me the once over. :( A hunting buddy ran into one a day later, a female by his guess(it was a small one)they startled each other on top of a ridge.. she went one way and he went the other.

No encounter with a predator is going to be predictable, so BE DARN SURE of the legal implications of your actions before you decide to take action.

Stay safe, stay legal...

Dr.Rob
 
FWIW, this from the Dept Fish and Game:
http://www.dfg.ca.gov/dfghome.html Main page
http://www.dfg.ca.gov/lion/index.html Stuff about lions

Lions have a sort of weird status, they were at a low in population back in the 20's and its steadily grown to its present all time highest pop this century....but they are "protected". Dunno whats really legal where they are concerned. The website gives a contact number and the lion page says you should call if there is an attack or damage caused by them.

------------------
"Quis custodiet ipsos custodes" RKBA!
 
Personally I like the .308 I generally hit where I aim and if it is a big cat you can take him with one shot(hopefuly before he gets too close) also if the first shot just pisses him off you have 19 more to finish the job. Better check with the local conservation agent to find out what if any restrictions in effect. They might trap and move it.
 
Thanks all for the responses and the links. I don't really want to have to kill whatever it is. Mountain lion sightings are not uncommon in my area but they are seldom a problem, so this attack is unusual. It could just be a random thing since winter is here and with the snow the predators follow the game down to lower elevations. I've hiked these mountains for a few decades now, at times by myself and have never worried about it (do take the proper precautions though). Even seen one face to face from 5' away. I'd fire first to try and scare it off, but if this is a rogue lion or coyote I would rather be prepared than sorry.
 
Needless killing of a predator is rather pointless, although a legal, fair-chase kill of a mountain lion provides both a good rug and some fine eating.

If self-defense is called for and is successful, another form of self-defense comes into play: "Shoot, shovel, and shut up!"

:), Art
 
About 30 years ago I lived in a very remote part of northern Arizona. We had the only cabin within about 15 miles of a small town. I was just "off the boat" from New York City and when I first noticed a deer up in a tree my first thought was gee they can jump high. Looking closer i noticed what appeared to be claw marks in the tree bark. There were times I had a feeling, a strong feeling, that I was being watched but never saw anything. At the time my HK91 (one of the first ones imported at a cost of $297 new) and a Colt Trooper MKIII .357 where always with me. Back then there were not supposed to be any wolves in the area but one day an extremely large wolf did past no more than 40 or 50 feet from me. He looked right at me and continued on. I was able to see his blue/gray eyes and could have easily shot him. I do not believe in killing unless I am in danger. It was actually an honor to experience this. Sorry to say there are no mountain lions or bears in this area today. I feel they were part of the beauty and magic of the woods. They made it wild and the danger they potentially presented made it more exciting and a richer experience. If I were you I would not shoot the lion if I saw it.I might fire a shot to scare it off.It is a difficult decision because I'm sure you love your dogs but it has a right to live too. I moved to a more civilized area, Prescott arizona and miss being in a woods that is not logged out by the Forest Dis-service and has bears/lions.
Ironically, what presented the greatest threat to me back then was wild dogs. These were hunting dogs that must of gotten lost and the owners had to leave them. I was once surrounded by five growling large dogs and let them get too close because I never want to shoot anyone's dogs. It was scary because you could not keep your eyes on all of them. I had the feeling that the two behind me were going for me. I just had the Colt under my jacket( to keep it warm and functioning) and was going to shoot ( no warning shots here with five dogs and a six shooter). These dogs knew what a gun was and at the sight of it they left.
I made my living then as a artist and had many unusual experiences and stories. I guess at 52 years old I am an old timer but find it hard to really feel cause I look 35 .
Sorry for running off at the mouth. Use the faster handling weapon as the Mini-30 is enough weapon. And good luck to you.
 
Sounds like a lion. Colorado Div. of Wildlife uses rubber buck to (to quote a friend)" give them a negative experience of the area". They don't come back.
 
If it was me I'd bring the centerfire rifle I can hit with best under pressure. If you use that Aimpoint I'd practice starting from a "cold" start: dot turned off and maybe scope covers left shut. You might decide to permanently take the covers off.

A handgun wouldn't be a bad idea, either.

Edmund
 
Dr. Rob, very informative post. But are you telling us that in Colo. if you are hunting some fair game with a rifle under .24 caliber or a shotgun, and you shoot a lion that is attacking you, you can be charged with a violation of law? This is the only way I can interpret what you're saying, since defense of person is the only reason to shoot a lion, and you flatly stated the caliber requirement. And since you can't predict when you'll be stalked by a lion, you'd better hunt game birds and wascawy wabbits with a .30-.30, just to be safe.....

[This message has been edited by Futo Inu (edited December 11, 1999).]
 
Futo..

What I'm saying is a LEGAL license to shoot a lion requires (like ALL big game in colorado) a rifle of 24 caliber or larger, or a handgun with 500+ ft pounds of energy or a shotgun firing a single slug.

That was my way of saying a 223 MIGHT NOT be enough for the job cleanly and quickly. And while you COULD kill it with a handgun/etc a rifle would likely be better for the job.

Colorado's various counties and municipalities deal with lion problems differently but essentailly yes YOU CANNOT SHOOT a lion for killing your dogs. If its stalking/attcking a PERSON killing it is totally legal. Boulder canyon has seen a joggers treed by lions, poodles eaten, dogs dissapeared and one woman ran off a lion armed only with a broom.

Lion attacks and fatalies are even rarer than bear attacks (at least in the lower 48) colorado had its first documented (in the past 50 years) lion fatality just over a year ago. But as long as people encroach on lion habitat, and deer #'s continue to climb there will be more and more lions sighted/encountered.

PS the ideaof "rubber buckshot" is one I had not heard from Division of Wildlife... i bet it works. Its also possible the dogs were killed by another large dog.. lions generally take thier prey away and partially bury the carcass and eat everything but the hooves and horns over the course of several days. If it was a lion.. logic would suggest the dead dog would have been dragged away. A necropsy of the dead dog would be the only way to be sure of what killed it.

PSS. (make sure the SECOND round in the magazine is a silver bullet just in case)

;)

Dr.Rob
 
If you fear for you life I recomend
the Mini-30 and then add the following items.

1 Pickaxe
1 round nose shovel
1 30lbs Bag of Lye

Shoot critter, Dig Hole, drop critter
in hole,cover in Lye and fill hole.

Thus little posible problems from govt.
 
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