Serial number of a Browning High Power pistol
- Thread starter procol
- Start date
http://www.browning.com/customerservice/dategun/detail.asp?id=35
A number that low would have to be 1954-55
A number that low would have to be 1954-55
Those may be inspection markings by the Austrian Police:
http://www.falfiles.com/forums/printthread.php?threadid=250662
Here's a good place to ask:
http://forums.1911forum.com/forumdisplay.php?f=15
It is a contract gun. You can tell by the markings in the front of the grip strap and the base of the magazine. LGK 0245 LGK stands for stands for Landes Gendarmerie Kommando. The numbers that follow are a rack # IIRC. It is an Austrian Border patrol gun from after 1944 to early 1950s once the FN Herstal factory was back in Belgian hands.
If you could get a picture of the barrel lug and cams that would help date the gun as pre-1950s or post 1950. There were a few improvements made to the BHP in 1950. One of which is the dimensions of the barrel lug and cams. There are other ways to tell as well but require more breaking down of the pistol to inspect the mag safety design.
As to value it is much closer to $1000 than $500.
When you are looking at guns of this age it is all about condition and originality of the configuration. You need to make sure the grips are period correct, that no parts have been replaced, that the gun has not been reblued in anyway, on this particular gun I would hope the magazine disconnect is still intact or at least the parts are coming with the pistol.
One thing to consider is that the internal exactor is a know failure point. If shot enough they will break. It is not a matter of if IMHO it is a matter of when. So if you are buying this gun as a shooter that is a serious consideration because when it breaks it will cost about $75+ to replace extractor with a surplus piece if you can find one and the value of the pistol will be hurt by the replacement part.
If you want to talk more via PM I can give you some more detailed thoughts.
If you could get a picture of the barrel lug and cams that would help date the gun as pre-1950s or post 1950. There were a few improvements made to the BHP in 1950. One of which is the dimensions of the barrel lug and cams. There are other ways to tell as well but require more breaking down of the pistol to inspect the mag safety design.
As to value it is much closer to $1000 than $500.
When you are looking at guns of this age it is all about condition and originality of the configuration. You need to make sure the grips are period correct, that no parts have been replaced, that the gun has not been reblued in anyway, on this particular gun I would hope the magazine disconnect is still intact or at least the parts are coming with the pistol.
One thing to consider is that the internal exactor is a know failure point. If shot enough they will break. It is not a matter of if IMHO it is a matter of when. So if you are buying this gun as a shooter that is a serious consideration because when it breaks it will cost about $75+ to replace extractor with a surplus piece if you can find one and the value of the pistol will be hurt by the replacement part.
If you want to talk more via PM I can give you some more detailed thoughts.
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The "ST" stands for Steiermark (Styria), one of the Bundesländer (states) in Austria.
One of the interesting and confusing things about FN military contract pistols is that they are often numbered in a separate series for a contract, and that is the case here. The gun is not the 1148th BHP ever made; it is the 1148th in the Austrian contract. Otherwise that pistol would date to 1935, which it obviously does not.
As to "introduced in 1954", the Browning Arms Co. means the pistol was first commercially imported into the US by them at that time; the HP or GP actually dates, in that basic form, to 1935. Some collectors use the term "Browning High Power" only for those pistols imported into the U.S. by the Browning Arms Company. (BAC made no guns; the pistols, rifles and shotguns imported by them were made by FN in Belgium, but also in other countries, including Portugal and Japan.) But FN used the name "Browning" in advertising and in markings on many of the Browning patent products it made and sold; that pistol is clearly marked "Browning's Patent". I see no problem with calling it a "Browning High Power", or BHP.
Jim
One of the interesting and confusing things about FN military contract pistols is that they are often numbered in a separate series for a contract, and that is the case here. The gun is not the 1148th BHP ever made; it is the 1148th in the Austrian contract. Otherwise that pistol would date to 1935, which it obviously does not.
As to "introduced in 1954", the Browning Arms Co. means the pistol was first commercially imported into the US by them at that time; the HP or GP actually dates, in that basic form, to 1935. Some collectors use the term "Browning High Power" only for those pistols imported into the U.S. by the Browning Arms Company. (BAC made no guns; the pistols, rifles and shotguns imported by them were made by FN in Belgium, but also in other countries, including Portugal and Japan.) But FN used the name "Browning" in advertising and in markings on many of the Browning patent products it made and sold; that pistol is clearly marked "Browning's Patent". I see no problem with calling it a "Browning High Power", or BHP.
Jim
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My assumption is that he would say it is a FN Hi Power.
This is so true. The serial numbers for contract guns from FN are really confusing. They overlap and they used the exact same numbering for different contracts so dating them can be difficult. This is one of the larger and well known contracts so it is not as hard and easily recognized.
mikejonestkd
New member
It is a Browning designed Hi Power manufactured by FN.
mikejonestkd
New member
I stand corrected! 
As others have observed, the Austrian contract pistol pictured is not a Browning Hi-Power. It is an FN Hi-Power
Browning is a marketing company that has imported firearms into the US and Canada made by Sig, Beretta, FN, Miroku, Sako, Nikko, and many others.
It has the manufacturer roll mark Browning on the firearm and the model that that Browning has deemed it to be. The first Browning Hi-Power brought into the US was 1954. Prior to that time Browning Hi-Powers did not exist. Browning died in 1927, long before the design matured in 1935. The work was finished by Dieudonne Saive, a Belgian employed by FN. Follow the link below to see how much influence Saive had on modern military weapons.
By the way, the work on the HP was in response to a request for proposal from the French Army.
Can anyone document a HP being imported into the US prior to 1954 other than battlefield bringbacks? Record keeping at Liege is more an art than science. Does anyone know if Browning products were ever sold outside N. America? I am unable to find anything to support it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dieudonné_Saive
Browning is a marketing company that has imported firearms into the US and Canada made by Sig, Beretta, FN, Miroku, Sako, Nikko, and many others.
It has the manufacturer roll mark Browning on the firearm and the model that that Browning has deemed it to be. The first Browning Hi-Power brought into the US was 1954. Prior to that time Browning Hi-Powers did not exist. Browning died in 1927, long before the design matured in 1935. The work was finished by Dieudonne Saive, a Belgian employed by FN. Follow the link below to see how much influence Saive had on modern military weapons.
By the way, the work on the HP was in response to a request for proposal from the French Army.
Can anyone document a HP being imported into the US prior to 1954 other than battlefield bringbacks? Record keeping at Liege is more an art than science. Does anyone know if Browning products were ever sold outside N. America? I am unable to find anything to support it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dieudonné_Saive
Just some history, FWIW. Browning was a "free lance" firearms designer. He often came up with a design, produced a working model, then sold the manufacturing rights to any gun company that would pay him what he wanted. Later, he worked on a royalty arrangement, being paid a fixed amount for each gun made to his design. He became a very wealthy man.
His first handgun designs were sold to Colt, but they were not interested in a pocket pistol at that time, so he sold the design of what became the Model 1900 to FN. It was a commercial success, but FN was getting its clock cleaned by DWM in the military world. DWM had the sleek, new Parabellum (Luger) pistol and every army in the world was interested. FN had only the 7.65x17 Model 1900, which was both old-fashioned looking and underpowered for military use.
So FN asked Browning to design a more powerful and more modern looking military pistol. The result was the Model 1903, which FN marketed as the Grand Modele, the Model 1903. Later in that year, Colt expressed interest in the design, but already had a more powerful pistol which they were hoping would be adopted by the U.S. Army. But there was an interest in the new automatic pistol, and a demand for one in pocket size. So Browning scaled down his Grand Modele and produced the Colt Model 1903, in the 7.65x17 cartridge, now renamed the .32 Colt Automatic Pistol cartridge.
Later, Browning designed what became the Model 1910; when military forces wanted a larger pistol, FN engineers worked out ways to lengthen the magazine and the barrel while keeping the basic design, and produced the Model 1922. (A Model 1910 piston in 9mm Browning Short became infamous when it was used by one Gavrilo Prinzip to kill Austrian Archduke Franz Ferdinand, an incident that ultimately led to World War I.)
When, after WWI, the French expressed interest in a new military pistol to replace the hotch-potch of revolvers and small caliber pistols on hand. FN turned to their premier designer, John Browning, who, in 1923, turned out a brand new design for a striker fired, 9x19 high capacity pistol that got to the prototype stage. Unfortunately, Browning died (1926) before refining the design and that was left to Dieudonne Saive, FN's in-house designer, who kept some features, but changed the gun to a hammer fired type with some areas of resemblance to the Colt Model 1911. That gun later was called the Grand Rendement. With some minor changes, and a change of name, the Grand Rendement became the Grand Puisance, or High Power. The GP/HP was brought into its final pre-WWII form in 1934 and limited production began that year. Ultimately, the French rejected the FN offer and adopted their own Model 1935A and Model 1935S. Belgium adopted the GP in 1935 and it is often called the Model 1935. The Germans called the pistol the P.35(b), with the (b) indicating a Belgian design. (The Polish Radom pistol, also called the Model 1935 by its developers, was called by the Germans the P.35(p). It was almost a direct copy of the Browning-designed Model 1911.)
Jim
His first handgun designs were sold to Colt, but they were not interested in a pocket pistol at that time, so he sold the design of what became the Model 1900 to FN. It was a commercial success, but FN was getting its clock cleaned by DWM in the military world. DWM had the sleek, new Parabellum (Luger) pistol and every army in the world was interested. FN had only the 7.65x17 Model 1900, which was both old-fashioned looking and underpowered for military use.
So FN asked Browning to design a more powerful and more modern looking military pistol. The result was the Model 1903, which FN marketed as the Grand Modele, the Model 1903. Later in that year, Colt expressed interest in the design, but already had a more powerful pistol which they were hoping would be adopted by the U.S. Army. But there was an interest in the new automatic pistol, and a demand for one in pocket size. So Browning scaled down his Grand Modele and produced the Colt Model 1903, in the 7.65x17 cartridge, now renamed the .32 Colt Automatic Pistol cartridge.
Later, Browning designed what became the Model 1910; when military forces wanted a larger pistol, FN engineers worked out ways to lengthen the magazine and the barrel while keeping the basic design, and produced the Model 1922. (A Model 1910 piston in 9mm Browning Short became infamous when it was used by one Gavrilo Prinzip to kill Austrian Archduke Franz Ferdinand, an incident that ultimately led to World War I.)
When, after WWI, the French expressed interest in a new military pistol to replace the hotch-potch of revolvers and small caliber pistols on hand. FN turned to their premier designer, John Browning, who, in 1923, turned out a brand new design for a striker fired, 9x19 high capacity pistol that got to the prototype stage. Unfortunately, Browning died (1926) before refining the design and that was left to Dieudonne Saive, FN's in-house designer, who kept some features, but changed the gun to a hammer fired type with some areas of resemblance to the Colt Model 1911. That gun later was called the Grand Rendement. With some minor changes, and a change of name, the Grand Rendement became the Grand Puisance, or High Power. The GP/HP was brought into its final pre-WWII form in 1934 and limited production began that year. Ultimately, the French rejected the FN offer and adopted their own Model 1935A and Model 1935S. Belgium adopted the GP in 1935 and it is often called the Model 1935. The Germans called the pistol the P.35(b), with the (b) indicating a Belgian design. (The Polish Radom pistol, also called the Model 1935 by its developers, was called by the Germans the P.35(p). It was almost a direct copy of the Browning-designed Model 1911.)
Jim
Hi, Jaysouth,
No FN-made pistols of any kind were commercially imported into the U.S. prior to c. 1954 because FN and Colt had made an agreement not to invade each other's territory. Under that agreement, Colt had exclusive marketing rights to the Western Hemisphere and England, while FN had the rights to continental Europe and Africa. Asia was free to all. The sale of Colt pistols to Norway c. 1913/14 required a waiver by FN, which was granted when the Norwegians expressed interest only in the Colt product (the High Power not yet being on the market, of course). That agreement was terminated by mutual agreement in the 1950's, due to Colt's general lack of interest in the U.S. civilian market and the agreement's questionable legality under U.S. anti-trust laws.
But High Powers made by FN long before Browning Arms Company existed carried the words "Browning's Patent" on the slide. True, the final design was Siave's, not Browning's, and obviously there was no company in the U.S. to import and sell the pistol, due to the agreement mentioned above.
The only FN pistols in the U.S. before c. 1954 were GI bringbacks, mostly captured from the Germans, and a few purchased in Europe by American tourists and officials. The HP was reportedly a favorite of the Waffen SS, but German personnel in general preferred their own P.08 and P.38 when they could get them. Second choice was reportedly the P.35(p), or Radom.
Jim
No FN-made pistols of any kind were commercially imported into the U.S. prior to c. 1954 because FN and Colt had made an agreement not to invade each other's territory. Under that agreement, Colt had exclusive marketing rights to the Western Hemisphere and England, while FN had the rights to continental Europe and Africa. Asia was free to all. The sale of Colt pistols to Norway c. 1913/14 required a waiver by FN, which was granted when the Norwegians expressed interest only in the Colt product (the High Power not yet being on the market, of course). That agreement was terminated by mutual agreement in the 1950's, due to Colt's general lack of interest in the U.S. civilian market and the agreement's questionable legality under U.S. anti-trust laws.
But High Powers made by FN long before Browning Arms Company existed carried the words "Browning's Patent" on the slide. True, the final design was Siave's, not Browning's, and obviously there was no company in the U.S. to import and sell the pistol, due to the agreement mentioned above.
The only FN pistols in the U.S. before c. 1954 were GI bringbacks, mostly captured from the Germans, and a few purchased in Europe by American tourists and officials. The HP was reportedly a favorite of the Waffen SS, but German personnel in general preferred their own P.08 and P.38 when they could get them. Second choice was reportedly the P.35(p), or Radom.
Jim
I think that you are missing quiet a bit of the story with your interpretation of what Browning's role and naming rights were to the gun which we know as the Hi Power. James K give a better description of the development IMHO then you do. Browning was a the original and only North American importer of new Hi Powers but they were much more than a marketing company. That started in 1954. To call them a marketing company in the time of JMB is IMHO simply false. Today they are a very profitable brand name for a wide range of products and are owned by FN. You could argue that the Browning of today is a marketing company but they were much more than that when JMB was alive.
In JMBs day they were a design company which had a contract with both FN and Colt who had divided the world into exclusive territories for JMB designs. Colt and FN basically had a 5 year renewable contract to divide up the world of small arms in terms of Browning designs. While this agreement was in force the patents for each company were respected and IIRC enforced by the other within their half of the world. Each company had to have permission of the other in order to use specific Browning designs in new pistols. The Hi Power fell under this agreement. FN could not import pistols into Colts territory even though Colt passed on the design.
You are correct what we know as the Hi Power was designed in response to a French contract. The Hi-Power was a contract gun just like the 1911. It was a contract spec created by and for the French military. They wanted a new service pistol which they described as, the Grand Rendement High Yield in French, or alternatively Grande Puissance = "high power". The French Govt approached FN with this concept/contract.
The French contract required that the gun be compact, have a capacity of at least 15 rounds in 9mm or higher caliber. Like all contract guns the designers like JMB put into the gun what ever the contract required. If they had wanted it chambered in 45 he would have done it. If they wanted it to have adjustable sights it would have had that. If they wanted pink grips pink grips would have been on the gun.
There was also the issue of avoiding Colt patents because at the time Colt and FN had basically divided up the small arms world into 2 markets which one of each respectively dominated. The original magazine design was all Savie. He is the inventor of the staggered pistol magazine not JMB. JMB thought that a 7 or so round capacity was enough for a side arm but the French wanted 15. JMB produced 2 protoypes for FN built around Savie's 15 round mag.
One was a straight blow back IIRC similar to other JMB designs the second had a tilt barrel. This guns breech tilted up or down relative to the slide to lock into an aperture in the slide and tilt downwards to unlock after rearward movement. The locking and unlocking was preformed with the use of a lug which has a cam in contact with a lug. This functioned just like the 1911 which he designed for Colt but was going to be less costly to manufacture. It eliminated the 1911s expensive barrel link and pin.
FN not JMB chose the second model with the tilting barrel!!!! This was the locked breech version of the pistol. The pistol had a striker firing group which JMB designed. This gun became was known as the Grand Rendement. You can see it design specs below.
Once JMB died Saive completed the design taking into account changes made by the French to the contract. Looking at the gun as it was at the time of JMBs death which is pictured above one can see the number of changes it under went in order to become what we know at the Hi Power.
To not call it a Browning Hi Power regardless of the importation or rollmark on the side of the pistol is IMHO a willful ignorance of the history of the pistol. It is known throughout the world as The Browning Hi Power automatic pistol.
If you include the Inglis HP then yes there were High Powers sold inside inside the US and outside North America which were label "Browning".
Also as James K pointed out there were FN pistols made and sold all over the world, within FNs contractual territory, which bore the rollmark stamping of "Browning Patient". The Inglis Hi Powers are just one example. 
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