Senario - Relative has $5000 and no guns.

H

Halffast

New member
Here's the deal. One of your relatives (a Brother-in-law, nephew, etc.) has just graduated from college and has been hired by company in his area. He is going to recieve a $5000 sign up bonus. He and his family have always been inbetween pro- and anti-gun. He has gone shooting with you a couple of times and is a decent shot, but he owns no guns of his own. He is suddenly very concerned that Gore will win the election and outlaw firearms AND ammo. He wants to spend his 5 grand on guns and enough ammo to last him a long time if that were to happen. Since you are the family gun nut...er, sorry, ;) family firearms enthusiast, he has called you to ask for help. He wants them for hunting, self-defence, and if TSHTF. He has no significant other, so he only has to arm himself. What do you tell him to buy?

Here are the rules.

1. Only new guns. You live too far away to drive to look at any used guns for him.
2. Prices you have seen since New Year (including Gun Shows).
3. Must include accesories like holsters, cleaning kits, scopes, cases, etc., but you can group anything under $100 into a Misc. category to keep the posts shorter.
4. No limit on the number of guns or the amount of ammo, just stay under $5000. Don't worry about tax.
5. He lives in a gun friendly state, so he only has to worry about federal gun restrictions.
6. Don't forget to list how much and what type of ammo for each weapon.

Thanks,
Halffast

------------------
"There are people who do not mind the fact that O.J. Simpson walks free. There are people who do not mind the fact that Lon Horiuchi is not only not punished for his atrocity at Ruby Ridge, but he continues on the public payroll. There are those who know who killed Vince Foster, but are not bothered by the fact that the subject has been dropped officially. I mind those things. Do you?" - Jeff Cooper
 
*pops knuckles*

Ok, let's get started: www.aimsurplus.com
RIFLE
1)STG-58 in .308cal=$529.95
a)20 20rnd FAL mags=$160
b)South African surplus .308 in 980rnd cases=$126x5=$630(keep in mind, this stuff can't be reloaded.)
Grand total for FAL, mags and ammo, $1320(gun, 20 mags, and 4900 .308 rnds)

PISTOL
(various gun stores, ect.)
1)Beretta 92FS INOX(stainless)=$600
a)6 15rnd GI mags@$50 each=$300
b)5 cases of 9mm hardball from your good friends at aimsurplus@$105 a case(this stuff IS reloadable)=$525
Grand total=$1425

SHOTGUN
(again, various gun shops, ect.)
1)Mossburg 590 12gauge shotgun=$350-$400
a)300 #7 shot shells@$4/box of 25=$48
b)case of 200 OObuck from S&B=$55
c)50 1 ounce slugs@$3/box of 5=$30
Grand total=$533

GRAND TOTAL
$3278(excluding cleaning suplies, reloading stuff, ect.)
Hope you...er, he has fun!
DW
 
Allow me to begin by saying that if said relative is concerned that Gore will outlaw guns, the solution is NOT to run out and buy guns and ammo -- voting at the polls in November AND chipping in the money to the GOA, NRA, JFPO or whoever is the better idea. 'Twill do him or her no good to buy all those nice guns only to have them taken away because our gun rights have gone down the toilet.

If all the money spent on guns purchased "because I was afraid they'd be banned" went to support our gun rights, we wouldn't have any such worries. If your relative has $5k to spend and actually cares about keeping his or her guns then a lifetime membership in the GOA or NRA (or both) should be in order.

Now to answer your question:

Realize that each gun owner is different -- I would not recommend any specific model of handgun because the optimal strategy is to find the handgun that best fits the shooter in terms of grip and caliber.

You also didn't say what kind of game your relative is hunting. If he or she is going for squirrels, a .22 LR handgun is in order -- but if he or she is going for Cape buffalo, we need a firestick in .416 Rigby. As you can see, the price range is quite broad.

So here's a rough shopping list:

1. GOA life membership($500).

- Necessary to KEEP our guns, as above.

2. Miscellaneous ($100 -- but I think you'll need more like $500 so I will allocate that amount).

- Holster for carry gun, including sturdy gun belt;
- Slings for long guns;
- Cleaning kits;
- Spare magazines;
- Surefire weapon-mounted light for all long arms;
- Surefire hand-held light;
- Magazine pouches;
- Spyderco Delica or Endura folding knife, with accessories (sharpening kit, etc.);
- Fox Labs OC spray (need non-lethal force options too); and
- Eye and ear protection.

3. Training courses (Insights Training Center, total is $400).

- General Defensive Handgun, two days; and
- General Defensive Rifle, two days.

4. Generic house and carry handgun ($500).

- Cannot recommend specific model, for reasons stated above. One handgun should be able to do the job of both.

5. Military-style semi-auto rifle ($600-800).

- Spend this budget on post-ban Bushmaster 16" carbine with A2 sights or SSR-99 AK American parts gun.

6. Rifle in .22 LR (take your pick, all of them are under $200).

7. Dillon 550B reloading press ($500).

- Includes $300 for the press, $200 worth of dies (for the rifle and handgun), caliber conversion kits, powder scale, etc.

8. Ammunition (spend the remaining $1,600 on ammunition, emphasis on rifle ammunition).


------------------
Justin T. Huang, Esq.
late of Kennett Square, Pennsylvania
 
<snicker> ... his first post-college lesson is that he doesn't really have $5,000 ... more like $3,500 give or take, I'll wager. ;) Mr. Gore et al get their cut first ...

Deathwish did more work than I will. I'd suggest:
1. Remington 12ga 870, modified by Hans Vang (18" ported barrel, SureFire foreend, sidesaddle, extended mag, ghost ring tritium sights). Plus a case of #1 buck, a case of bird shot and a case of rifled slugs. Basic, solid home defense.
2. Bushmaster Shorty AR-15, plus 6 30-round mags and 4-6 20-round mags. A couple cases of .223. Another, less expensive option would be an AK with 30 round mag's.
3. Regarding sidearms, I'd suggest three general categories:
a. Deep concealment pistol, like a Kahr K-9 (I think this entire category may be under increasingly severe pressure);
b. Deep coneealment revolver, Ruger or Taurus. Another potentially endangered 'species';
c. Full-size pistol with large cap mags, like a Sig 228, Beretta 92, etc. Would be tempting to get a 1911, but there would be some advantage to keeping same caliber (whichever he chooses) as the deep concealment pistol. The full capacity mags are clearly endangered.

A list like that will pretty well blow his cash. But, he can add accessories, ammo, etc. little by little as well. The firearms and the full capacity magazines are the first priority. If he buys all this from one dealer, perhaps he can drive a harder bargain. Remember that (help me here, guys), I think it is more than 2 firearms purchased at one time gets you special reporting to the BATF. Not a problem per se, but honest people purchasing firearms should be a private matter ... his / your choice.

Of course, we've allowed nothing for safe, secure storage, so he should budget for a safe down the road as well. Of course, that depends a lot on his residential situation. He should also consider a mini-vault for sidearm storage at home. Kids around?

Good luck to both of you. Regards from AZ


PS - just noticed I ignored your 'hunting' note. Well, I suppose I believe that bolt action rlfles and other 'hunting' gear are a lot less endangered than many other firearms. I'd suggest, for now, that he focus on defense-type firearms that can also be used for hunting.



[This message has been edited by Jeff Thomas (edited June 05, 2000).]
 
I believe in military weapons. My reasons:
YOU WILL ALWAYS BE ABLE TO FIND AMMO, PARTS, ECT.

The AR IMHO may serve that role, BUT I think that .308 is a better overall choice.

Same thing with the Beretta, it's general issue, it will out last you(I have nearly 10K through mine), but it may not fit your hands...

The shotgun will handle squirrels(#7 shot...)
and up to deer. The .308 CAN take elk, hell, I've heard stories of SA patrols thinning ELEPHANT populations with bursts from their FALS. The hand gun is strictly for use as a sidearm, if you want to kill someone, use the shotgun or rifle. If you get an AR get the conversion to change it to .22LR, saves space...

I'll second the GOA life membership, I need to get one too.....(although I have my doubts that it will do much save delay the inevitable....civil war.)
DW
 
<UL TYPE=SQUARE>
<LI> Remington 870 12 ga. Express Shotgun with rifle sights - This will partially fulfill both your hunting and home defense criteria. Get a side saddle for extra shells and buy 200 - #6 birdshot, 200 - #4 birdshot, 400 - 00 buckshot and 400 slugs. Cost of gun: $350, ammo: $350

<LI> Winchester Model 70 Classic Stainless Rifle in .30-06. - This will complete your hunting requirements, the cost includes a scope. Buy 2,000 rounds of ammo. Cost of gun: $800, ammo: $400

<LI> Ruger Super Redhawk in .44 Mag. - This will be your "hand cannon." It can be used for supplementing your hunting guns above or as personal defense. (If you’re the Dirty Harry type) ;) Also buy 1,000 rounds of ammo. Cost of gun: $500, ammo: $300

<LI> Sig P220 or P245 - This will be your everyday carry gun. (if you are able to carry) Include an IWB holster, 2 spare mags and 2,000 rounds of .45 ammo. (gotta practice) Cost of gun: $600, ammo: $400

<LI> SLR-95 7.62x39 Carbine Rifle - This will be your WTSHTF gun. It is an AK-47 variant with a milled receiver and synthetic furniture. This gun will *work* in the worst conditions. Get four 30rd. mags and a 75rd drum and 3,000 rounds of ammo. Cost of gun=$600, ammo=$275, accessories=$175

<LI> Cleaning and maintenance supplies, cases, eye/ear protection and spare parts (firing pins, springs, etc.) $215

<LI> GOA membership - $35
</UL>

There it is. $5,000. You need a quality gun safe too. Better make it $5,750 or dump the .44 Mag.


------------------
RKBA!
"The people have the right to bear arms for their defense and security"
Ohio Constitution, Article I, Section 4 Concealed Carry is illegal in Ohio.
Ohioans for Concealed Carry Website

[This message has been edited by TheBluesMan (edited June 05, 2000).]
 
I think you'll have a lot of replies to this topic. :D

I'd be inclined to recommend a good rifle, a good handgun, and good training for both. I've based the following on a couple of assumptions:

a) If you can hit your target, an effective round matters more than magazine capacity. I have more confidence in 8 rounds of 30-06 than 30 of .223. Same with .45 vs 9mm. Besides, what's "cover" to 5.56mm may very well just qualify as "concealment" to 30-06. :D

b) I'd prefer to remain legal as long as possible, and that means limit the "assault weapons." Yes, civil disobedience is fine, but I'd prefer to still be able to hit the public ranges with my arms once things begin to get bad. This means I'll pass on the flash-hiders, pistol-grips, and current military-issue arms.

c) [JOKE]The arms I've listed have already proven themselves against jack-booted fascist thugs.[/JOKE]

So...

1) Training. Go to Gunsite and take courses 250 and 270 (pistol and rifle, respectively). Haven't been yet, but am working hard to get there while Cooper is still around. Call this $2,500.

2) First Rifle. A good bolt-action sporter in .308 or 30-06. .223 is really easy to shoot, but there's a reason they're not legal for deer in many states. My preference was for a Turkish Mauser converted into Scout configuration. With Scope, $500.

I'd love to be able to limit myself to one rifle, but I can't. So:

3) Second Rifle. Semi-auto military rifle, in .308 or 30-06. I like the Garand after much consideration. $400-$500 from The Civilian Marksmanship Program, delivered to your door. Throw in $35 to buy enough en-bloc clips to hold 800 rounds at a time.

4) Pistol. 1911A1/1991A1 or clone in .45 ACP. There's a reason serious shooters still use this pistol 90 years after its introduction -- it's simply a great gun in a great caliber. Call this one $650.

5) Pistol 2 (optional). He might want to spend $2-300 on a "pocketable" .38 snubbie. I did. Great for CCW in warm weather.

6) Spend the rest on a .22 pistol and rifle (make/model doesn't matter much), and cleaning supplies. Tell him to budget 1000 rounds/month until Gore gets elected. ;) 1000 .45 this month, then 1000 30-06 next month, then...


(edit: clarify what I meant re: ammo purchases.)
------------------
I stand before Almighty God and I'll say what I have said for years. I will never again soil my responsibility as a voter by voting again for a candidate who turns their back on the fundamental principle of justice by which this nation's freedom lives or dies. --Alan Keyes, 2/2/2000

[This message has been edited by dzeanah (edited June 05, 2000).]
 
Hmmmm. How about (Minus the prices- but it comes in under the 5K stipulated.):

A Remington or Mossberg HD shotgun with appropriate accessories.

A 1911 government model. There are so many accessories and options, I do not know where to start.

A Winchester M70C .30-06 coupled with an appropriate scope. Substitute brand and model as desired. I'd keep it to .308 or .30-06, though, due to ammo availability.

A Winchester or Marlin 30-30 with ghost ring sights. Ammo is readily available, and it doubles for HD and hunting purposes.

And... Either lots of ammo or the necessary components to produce it.
 
I totally agree to go out and vote!
I totally agree to join the GOA, NRA, JPFO...


I hope I don't get flamed for this, but buy used. This way if you buy from a private person, they wont be registered. If we are afraid that gore will take it away our guns how are they going to know he has one.

------------------
"We are fast approaching the stage of the ultimate inversion: the stage where the government is free to do anything it pleases, while the citizens may act only by permission; which is the stage of the darkest periods of human history, the stage of rule by brute force."

--Ayn Rand, in "The Nature of Government"

[This message has been edited by hoosierboy (edited June 05, 2000).]
 
I suggest one gun of each basic type: pistol, rifle, shotgun, and the rest for ammo and accessories. My choices take into account reliability, availability of more ammo and parts, and ease of use and maintenance for a new gunner:

Glock 21 in .45 ACP, around $650. Add half a dozen hi-cap mags at about $500 (yeah, it's outrageous, but the mag is the most frequent source of problems). Stock 2,000 rounds of a good JHP and 5,000 of cheaper practice ammo.

Stainless Ruger Mini-14 in .223, about $600. Spend a couple hundred on extra mags for this too. Same ammo allocation as the pistol, 2,000 rounds soft points and 5,000 mil-surp ball for practice.

Remington 870 12 gauge, about $450. Get 3,000 rounds of 00 Buck and 1,000 slugs.

The rest should go to a good holster and mag carrier, cleaning supplies, and a double scoop of Baskin Robbins Black Cherry to reward him for doing the right thing.
 
Good replies everyone. Justin, I agree about joining the NRA, GOA, and JPFO. Also about voting. Jeff, your right about the taxes. I guess you would really need a $7500 bonus to hopefully have 5 grand left.

Here is my list that I did before my first posting.

Firearms
1. Ruger 10/22 SS with Synthetic stock and 3 extra mags. $230
2. Ruger KP95 with 2 extra mags (for 4 total) $340
3. Remington 870 Express 12 ga. with 26" barrel $230
4. Bushmaster XM-15 20" A-2 with 10 30 rnd. mags $1050
5. Remington 700 ADL with matt finish and synthetic stock in .308 with a Leupold 3-9x40 in Weaver bases and rings. $600
6. Ruger 22/45 SS with 5" barrel $220

Total for Firearms $2670

Ammo
1. 22LR 22000 rnds. $400
2. 9MM 1000 rnds. $260
3. 12ga #7 1000 rnds. $160
4. 12ga 00Buck 100 rnds. $50
5. 12ga Slugs 100 rnds. $50
6. .308 SP 1000 rnds. $500
7. .223 FMJ 3000 rnds. $510
8. .223 SP 1000 rnds. $190

Total for Ammo $2120

Misc. Holsters, Slings, Cleaning supplies, Hard cases. $210.

Grand Total $5000

I already see a couple of glaring deficiencies. The worst being no money to join any RKBA organizations. I will change it up some after reading your posts and hopefully the ones to come. Please feel free to comment on my choices as I am looking for some real constructive critisiam. I hope to turn this into a project later and I appreciate the help.

David




------------------
"There are people who do not mind the fact that O.J. Simpson walks free. There are people who do not mind the fact that Lon Horiuchi is not only not punished for his atrocity at Ruby Ridge, but he continues on the public payroll. There are those who know who killed Vince Foster, but are not bothered by the fact that the subject has been dropped officially. I mind those things. Do you?" - Jeff Cooper
 
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