Selling online: Issues and advice

[TXAZ]

I'm likely going to sell my .50 Barrett M107A1 with suppressor in the near future.

Haven't sold a gun online, much less one with a suppressor.

What sites are good / which ones to avoid?

Are there issues listing it on an auction site and on forums at the same time?

How do you handle the sale of a gun with a suppressor?

Would you include the ammo (hundreds of rounds from ball to AP to Raufoss)?

Any advice appreciated, I'd hate to have an issue, particularly with an NFA item.

 

[44 AMP]

How do you handle the sale of a gun with a suppressor?

The same way you handle any NFA item, the buyer has to do all their paperwork and get the ATF approval before the transfer can take place. This will take TIME. Anyone buying should understand this.
A friend of mine is selling an SBR. He has a buyer, is waiting on ATF approval. Currently going on 10 months in his case. It may take only a couple months, or it may take considerably longer, so be prepared.

If you're looking for a faster sale (for the rifle, anyway), consider separating the suppressor from the rifle and selling them individually.

Would you include the ammo (hundreds of rounds from ball to AP to Raufoss)?

What good is the ammo to you if you sell the rifle?? Sure, you can always sell it separately, even though increasing the cost of the package, selling ammo with the gun can be an incentive to the buyer, to get it all at once.

 

[riffraff]

I thought with an NFA item the buyer usually pays in full, seller takes a bow, then an FFL basically holds an item (now owned by buyer but cannot yet be possesed) pending transfer?..

Whatever the case this one wont be easy to retain value on unless you are willing to wait a long time for a unicorn buyer. At least I wouldnt expect to. An expensive rifle that is rarely sought in general, outfitted with an item even more rare that is a pain to own, when both are readily available for purchase new.

Id say you will probably make out best, provided laws support such in your state, by selling the rifle with ammo but minus surpressor via private sale / FTF. List the surpressor seperately and maybe reap 50% of what you got into that piece but you will likely do better that way than as a package. For the cost of a surpressor versus hassle I dont think Id ever consider a used one for more than 50% of the best price Id ever find it for new.

 

[44 AMP]

I thought with an NFA item the buyer usually pays in full, seller takes a bow, then an FFL basically holds an item (now owned by buyer but cannot yet be possesed) pending transfer?..

That's not how it is working in my friend's case. He has a "buyer" but no money changed hands (yet) and he retains his SBR until ATF approval of the buyer, THEN the sale takes place.

Now, some people will hand the item off to an FFL (one properly licensed to possess it), and then just wait for their money. This however, is technically a transfer (it goes on the FFL's books) and they are the legal owner/possessor from that point on. It's similar, but a little different from a regular gun on consignment, as I understand it. I'll check with my friend, tomorrow, and if I'm incorrect, will report back with the right info.

 

[Aguila Blanca]

Now, some people will hand the item off to an FFL (one properly licensed to possess it), and then just wait for their money. This however, is technically a transfer (it goes on the FFL's books) and they are the legal owner/possessor from that point on. It's similar, but a little different from a regular gun on consignment, as I understand it. I'll check with my friend, tomorrow, and if I'm incorrect, will report back with the right info.

I think you are incorrect. Legally, there is a distinction between ownership and possession. I think Frank Ettin has written about this in the past. I have sold firearms on consignment. Yes, the FFL takes possession and the firearm goes into his bound book because a transfer has taken place, but it's a transfer of possession, not a transfer of ownership. The FFL has taken temporary possession of MY firearm under a contract to sell the firearm as my agent. The FFL does not become the owner when I place the firearm with him for consignment sale.

IANAL but I can't see how it would be any different in the case of an FFL holding an NFA item in escrow pending BATFE approval of the transfer to the eventual purchaser. That said, I wonder how many FFLs would be willing to agree to hold an NFA item for a protracted period of time. I would expect that there would be some compensation for the FFL beyond a normal transfer fee.

 

[44 AMP]

IANAL but I can't see how it would be any different in the case of an FFL holding an NFA item in escrow pending BATFE approval of the transfer to the eventual purchaser.

You would think there shouldn't be any difference, but according to my friend (and the FFL he used) there is. A regular firearm would have been processed in the manner you expect (the dealer holds it, but doesn't actually own it), but in the case of the SBR (and I assume any other NFA item, this isn't how it works, at least in WA.

Because the owner of the SBR wasn't an FFL licensed dealer, but a private citizen, the FFL would have to fill out the paperwork, pay the tax, and become the actual owner (and possessor) of the SBR, before they could sell it to someone else. And the time wait was approximately 10.5 months. SO, for the dealer to sell my friend's gun, they would have to buy it, (waiting the 10+ months for their paperwork to go through, the same as a private citizen) and THEN the buyer would submit their paperwork and wait ANOTHER 10+ months for it to be approved, THEN they could buy, pay for, and pick up the SBR.

According to the FFL shop used, if it had been a dealer to dealer transfer, the process would be the same as a consignment sale of a regular firearm, BUT, because it was an NFA item AND not a dealer to dealer transfer, then the total transfer process (paperwork, tax stamp and wait) applied.
(the shop FFL can't "sell" an NFA item it doesn't "own", except as a dealer to dealer transfer.) So in this case, no only would the FFL have to possess the item in the legal sense, it would also have to own the NFA item in the legal sense in order to sell it.

The way it was handled was that the shop assisted the buyer with his paperwork, my friend retained his gun himself, no sale occurred until the buyer's approval & tax stamp came through. Then my friend delivered the gun to the buyer, and got paid. Application was submitted middle of Feb, approval received shortly after Christmas the same year. (last year)

SO, it appears one set of rules applies to regular firearms, and a different set for non-dealer to dealer NFA sales.

 

[dogtown tom]

riffraff I thought with an NFA item the buyer usually pays in full, seller takes a bow, then an FFL basically holds an item (now owned by buyer but cannot yet be possesed) pending transfer?..

Nope.

Aguila Blanca Quote:

…..IANAL but I can't see how it would be any different in the case of an FFL holding an NFA item in escrow pending BATFE approval of the transfer to the eventual purchaser.

Nope.
While gunsmithing an NFA firearm doesn't require a Form 4, this isn't a repair.

There is no "escrow" of an NFA firearm without a Form 4 approval from ATF.
Meaning that a Form 4 would have to be approved (tax stamp) to transfer possession from the current owner to the dealer/SOT. Then another Form 4 from that dealer/SOT to the buyer.....as long as the buyer resides in the same state as the dealer/SOT.

If the buyer and seller reside in the same state it's one stamp.....no dealer/SOT required by federal law.


If the buyer is in another state it will require a $200 stamp to transfer to the sellers dealer/SOT, a tax free Form 3 to the buyers dealer/SOT and another $200 stamp to transfer from that dealer/SOT to the buyer.

This is why the interstate market for used silencers is virtually nonexistent.

 

[dogtown tom]

44 AMP Quote:
Because the owner of the SBR wasn't an FFL licensed dealer, but a private citizen, the FFL would have to fill out the paperwork, pay the tax, and become the actual owner (and possessor) of the SBR, before they could sell it to someone else.

"Ownership" does not have anything to do with lawful possession. Lawful possession is by the person/trust/corp that holds the valid tax stamp.

SO, for the dealer to sell my friend's gun, they would have to buy it, (waiting the 10+ months for their paperwork to go through, the same as a private citizen) and THEN the buyer would submit their paperwork and wait ANOTHER 10+ months for it to be approved, THEN they could buy, pay for, and pick up the SBR.

No, the dealer doesn't have to buy anything.
The seller of the NFA firearm can pay for his own tax stamp, transferring to his dealer/SOT.

According to the FFL shop used, if it had been a dealer to dealer transfer, the process would be the same as a consignment sale of a regular firearm,

Not necessarily.
Transfers between dealer/SOT's are via a tax free Form 3. If done electronically they take as little as a couple of days. Paper Form 3's can take longer.

"dealer to dealer" meaning neither (or only one) has paid his SOT means a $200 Form 4.

BUT, because it was an NFA item AND not a dealer to dealer transfer, then the total transfer process (paperwork, tax stamp and wait) applied.

Only licensed dealers & manufacturers who have paid their yearly Special Occupational Tax can do tax free Form 3's.

(the shop FFL can't "sell" an NFA item it doesn't "own", except as a dealer to dealer transfer.)

I do that 8-12 times a month.
"Ownership" is not required to transfer possession of any firearm.

So in this case, no only would the FFL have to possess the item in the legal sense, it would also have to own the NFA item in the legal sense in order to sell it.

Absolutely false.

The way it was handled was that the shop assisted the buyer with his paperwork, my friend retained his gun himself, no sale occurred until the buyer's approval & tax stamp came through. Then my friend delivered the gun to the buyer, and got paid. Application was submitted middle of Feb, approval received shortly after Christmas the same year. (last year)

Appears as if the dealer never took possession.

SO, it appears one set of rules applies to regular firearms, and a different set for non-dealer to dealer NFA sales.

NFA rules apply to NFA firearms.

 

[44 AMP]

Appears as if the dealer never took possession.

In the case I am talking about, no, the FFL never took possession of the rifle.

There is no "escrow" of an NFA firearm without a Form 4 approval from ATF.
Meaning that a Form 4 would have to be approved (tax stamp) to transfer possession from the current owner to the dealer/SOT. Then another Form 4 from that dealer/SOT to the buyer.....as long as the buyer resides in the same state as the dealer/SOT.

If the buyer and seller reside in the same state it's one stamp.....no dealer/SOT required by federal law.

Ok, it appears the issue of legal ownership kind of confuses things, and I don't know if there are state laws that might be involved if the dealer were the "seller". I was given the impression that might be the case.

In my friend's case, the FFL told him that to sell his SBR rifle, they would have to get the tax stamp for it (so they could possess it) and then the buyer would have to get a tax stamp to buy the rifle, from the FFL.

SO, that's not what was done. The FFL only assisted the buyer with his paperwork, and the sale was direct person to person, once the buyer had the tax stamp he needed. The FFL never had possession of the rifle, all they did was help the buyer with questions about getting the tax stamp he needed to buy (and possess) it.