I work for a property maintenance company (we use a sweeper truck to clean parking lots) that covers the metro Phoenix area. I often work late hours, alone, in some questionable parts of town. While nothing has happened yet, I do have some concerns for my personal security. I am not old enough to get a CCW, but I am old enough to openly carry a firearm in AZ. My boss says that he would have no problem with me carrying a firearm while on the job. What I need help determining is should I carry a firearm (openly) while on the job? What would be the costs/benefits of doing so? Are there alternatives (mace, taser, etc. etc.) that would better suit my situation? Advice will be greatly appreciated.
self defense while at work
- Thread starter Russell
- Start date
If you're not old enough for a CCW then by federal law you're not old enough to carry any type of Handgun. You could carry a shotgun or a rifle but we all know the disadvantages of this. If you're in the 18 to 20 yo range, the best thing to carry is a voters card so you "children" can reclaim your right to the entire BOR and not just voting. Right now, I would just "suck" it up until you were 21 and could get a permit... that is if you're lucky and don't get killed by a 16yo gangbanger who can't own a handgun either but could care less. I hate to say this... but due to legal terms, I would be telling a minor to brake the law.. but, tough, you can't carry, open or not, until you are 21 years of age. You may be able to do so by state law... but do you have any federal buildings loaded up with feds around the area? If so, state law means diddley, the feds make you do as they say. Sorry.
Jeff Thomas
New member
Russell, you already got past the toughest hurdle in this situation ... your boss. I've learned a lot on TFL (etc.), and I'll try to pass a little on (many others here will provide more experienced advice):
1. First, use the 'Search' feature of TFL to research the finer points of this decision (type of sidearm, training, gear, ammunition, etc.)
2. A sidearm will probably be best. Try before you buy ... firearms can be rented at Caswell's in Mesa (nice folks), Shooters World in Phoenix, etc. As far as caliber, don't go smaller than 9mm. If you can afford more than one sidearm, then buy a full size now (for open carry), and perhaps a smaller sidearm later for more discreet, concealed carry. [Using the same caliber for the two can be handy.]
3. Take the concealed carry course, even if you're too young to get the permit. Good training - pay special attention to the color-coded awareness concept (especially considering your occupation - watch your 'six'). Caswell's is a good source for training, and they have a FATS machine (simulator ... this will quickly convince you of the seriousness of self defense). Then, join a range and practice.
4. Buy a good quality flashlight, like SureFire, and always carry it. Also, buy some pepper spray - it is good to have more than one form of self defense so that you have options. Lethal force is your last option. I've never been there, but I'm convinced .... if you ever have to use lethal force on someone, you'll likely experience long-lasting psychological and financial repercussions.
5. Read. Read TFL, and ask questions. Read books on using firearms for self defense - 'Stressfire' by Ayoob comes to mind. There are many others.
6. Kind of a bizarre thought, but consider a 'ride-a-long' with LEO's in your work area, around the same time you'll be working at night. Police officers are human beings, and if you can establish a relationship with a few of them, they can become your late night friends. And, if you ever need help in the middle of the night, it doesn't hurt to have a few friends around. Besides, they can fill you in on the risks and risk areas. Just a thought.
Recognize that you're crossing a philosophical 'bridge' ... from complacency and raw hope, to awareness and preparedness. This is a significant journey. You have simply decided to buy 'insurance' by using 'safety rescue tools' as part of your 'risk management'. Many people never cross that bridge, or even know of it.
Take care out there. And, take this responsibility very seriously. Join with us as a responsible firearm owner, and help preserve your individual, and our collective freedom.
Regards from AZ
(ps - noted the above post coincident with mine. I forget the age rules, and those may be an issue anyway. Get the Arizona Gun Owners Guide ... www.gunlaws.com )
[This message has been edited by Jeff Thomas (edited May 25, 2000).]
1. First, use the 'Search' feature of TFL to research the finer points of this decision (type of sidearm, training, gear, ammunition, etc.)
2. A sidearm will probably be best. Try before you buy ... firearms can be rented at Caswell's in Mesa (nice folks), Shooters World in Phoenix, etc. As far as caliber, don't go smaller than 9mm. If you can afford more than one sidearm, then buy a full size now (for open carry), and perhaps a smaller sidearm later for more discreet, concealed carry. [Using the same caliber for the two can be handy.]
3. Take the concealed carry course, even if you're too young to get the permit. Good training - pay special attention to the color-coded awareness concept (especially considering your occupation - watch your 'six'). Caswell's is a good source for training, and they have a FATS machine (simulator ... this will quickly convince you of the seriousness of self defense). Then, join a range and practice.
4. Buy a good quality flashlight, like SureFire, and always carry it. Also, buy some pepper spray - it is good to have more than one form of self defense so that you have options. Lethal force is your last option. I've never been there, but I'm convinced .... if you ever have to use lethal force on someone, you'll likely experience long-lasting psychological and financial repercussions.
5. Read. Read TFL, and ask questions. Read books on using firearms for self defense - 'Stressfire' by Ayoob comes to mind. There are many others.
6. Kind of a bizarre thought, but consider a 'ride-a-long' with LEO's in your work area, around the same time you'll be working at night. Police officers are human beings, and if you can establish a relationship with a few of them, they can become your late night friends. And, if you ever need help in the middle of the night, it doesn't hurt to have a few friends around. Besides, they can fill you in on the risks and risk areas. Just a thought.
Recognize that you're crossing a philosophical 'bridge' ... from complacency and raw hope, to awareness and preparedness. This is a significant journey. You have simply decided to buy 'insurance' by using 'safety rescue tools' as part of your 'risk management'. Many people never cross that bridge, or even know of it.
Take care out there. And, take this responsibility very seriously. Join with us as a responsible firearm owner, and help preserve your individual, and our collective freedom.
Regards from AZ
(ps - noted the above post coincident with mine. I forget the age rules, and those may be an issue anyway. Get the Arizona Gun Owners Guide ... www.gunlaws.com )
[This message has been edited by Jeff Thomas (edited May 25, 2000).]
USP45usp, in AZ I can legally own and carry a handgun openly. I have been told this by two LEO and several other AZ citizens (who carry openly regularly). I reviewed the AZ statutes and the only type of carrying of a firearm that is prohibited is carrying concealed without a permit. Minors (above 14) can even transport and use firearms here in conjunction with formal or informal target shooting and hunting without adult supervision.
The only federal law that affects this is that I cannot buy one from an FFL (private purchase is ok)
I already have a Glock 21 (.45) that I think would serve nicely for open carry.
What kind of pepperspray is best, I hear Capstun is pretty effective?
The only federal law that affects this is that I cannot buy one from an FFL (private purchase is ok)
I already have a Glock 21 (.45) that I think would serve nicely for open carry.
What kind of pepperspray is best, I hear Capstun is pretty effective?
Danger Dave
New member
Well, I think your question shouldn't be so much "what should I carry" since you seem to have that covered, but "what should I carry it in?"
Get yourself a gun belt - full size pistols are rough on standard belts. Then a good holster, one with some sort of retention strap (you're going to be doing manual-type labor with it on, you don't want to have to pick it off the pavement, or have someone snatch off your belt).
Open carry under 21 - you lucky dog you...
Get yourself a gun belt - full size pistols are rough on standard belts. Then a good holster, one with some sort of retention strap (you're going to be doing manual-type labor with it on, you don't want to have to pick it off the pavement, or have someone snatch off your belt).
Open carry under 21 - you lucky dog you...
Bullwinkle
New member
I would also counsel you this... Do every thing you can to look as reputible as possible; clothes, hair, grooming, attitude, language should all be ship-shape, high and tight, and buttoned-down. A youngster with a big black gun is bound to attract attention and the more you look like a good guy the less likely it is people will think you are a bad guy.
A good inside the waste band holster (IWB) either with a thumb snap or tight hand molding will serve you well. Dark colored shirts, tucked in and neatly bloused will reduce the visual signature of the 21 without concealing it.
If your 21 does not already have night sights consider adding a set. A Surefire 6P or 6Z should also probably be on your person.
I'm not real familiar with the Az open carry rules but you might look into getting one of those orange reflective traffic vests made of mesh. You might be able to get one sized so that it covers some of the pistol without concealing it in the legal sense. Might help you from getting runned over too.
A good inside the waste band holster (IWB) either with a thumb snap or tight hand molding will serve you well. Dark colored shirts, tucked in and neatly bloused will reduce the visual signature of the 21 without concealing it.
If your 21 does not already have night sights consider adding a set. A Surefire 6P or 6Z should also probably be on your person.
I'm not real familiar with the Az open carry rules but you might look into getting one of those orange reflective traffic vests made of mesh. You might be able to get one sized so that it covers some of the pistol without concealing it in the legal sense. Might help you from getting runned over too.
Glenn E. Meyer
New member
Before you listen to a lot of gun recommendations - if you haven't already -
at least take a basic handgun class
and then try a few different ones at the range.
Otherwise recommendations of X and Y aren't enough.
Also, check with the state AG and a good criminal lawyer about this also.
at least take a basic handgun class
and then try a few different ones at the range.
Otherwise recommendations of X and Y aren't enough.
Also, check with the state AG and a good criminal lawyer about this also.
My question would be weighted between how many people am I simply going to freak out vs. the likelyhood that I'll need it.
I work in an office building, and there's little chance of anything happening, and the clients here would never come back, so carrying openly for me would be dumb, but if I worked at a salvage yard I'd think about it.
In my mind, the ideal open carry spot is on my thigh with the handle just above where my hand naturally falls.
I work in an office building, and there's little chance of anything happening, and the clients here would never come back, so carrying openly for me would be dumb, but if I worked at a salvage yard I'd think about it.
In my mind, the ideal open carry spot is on my thigh with the handle just above where my hand naturally falls.
I think I may have confused some of you.
"What I need help determining is should I carry a firearm (openly) while on the job?"
I was not asking what type of firearm should I carry, I was asking if I should carry a firearm openly while on the job at all.
The Freak out factor vs. the likelyhood that I'll need it is one of the things I'm trying to determine. It is unlikely that I'll need it, but I don't want to end up some night with my last thoughts being "I wish I had a gun"
BTW I have had some handgun training already, my uncle is certified Law Enforcement instructor. What I need more of is Use of force training. Taking the CCW class even though I can't get the permit sounds like a good answer to this.
"What I need help determining is should I carry a firearm (openly) while on the job?"
I was not asking what type of firearm should I carry, I was asking if I should carry a firearm openly while on the job at all.
The Freak out factor vs. the likelyhood that I'll need it is one of the things I'm trying to determine. It is unlikely that I'll need it, but I don't want to end up some night with my last thoughts being "I wish I had a gun"
BTW I have had some handgun training already, my uncle is certified Law Enforcement instructor. What I need more of is Use of force training. Taking the CCW class even though I can't get the permit sounds like a good answer to this.
Russell,
If you are going to be sitting in/driving the sweeper truck then the "freak out" factor shouldn't be too much. If you are in and out a lot then it might come into play.
Does your boss realize that it would have to be carried open?
The ride along suggestion is a good one, you can ask the guys who should know if they feel it is needed or not.
If you do carry (which btw I think is a good idea if you are out there alone at night) you might want to print out a copy of the laws that show that it is ok for you to carry. It might save a big headache if you run into someone who doesn't know the law (thinking of police or fed) and wants to give you crap about it.
And like was mentioned clean yourself up if you aren't already. If you don't look like a thug at first glance then it might save an anti screaming into their cell phone (of course with an anti it probably won't but that is another thread....).
My .02 FWIW.
Greg
If you are going to be sitting in/driving the sweeper truck then the "freak out" factor shouldn't be too much. If you are in and out a lot then it might come into play.
Does your boss realize that it would have to be carried open?
The ride along suggestion is a good one, you can ask the guys who should know if they feel it is needed or not.
If you do carry (which btw I think is a good idea if you are out there alone at night) you might want to print out a copy of the laws that show that it is ok for you to carry. It might save a big headache if you run into someone who doesn't know the law (thinking of police or fed) and wants to give you crap about it.
And like was mentioned clean yourself up if you aren't already. If you don't look like a thug at first glance then it might save an anti screaming into their cell phone (of course with an anti it probably won't but that is another thread....).
My .02 FWIW.
Greg
Jeff Thomas
New member
Russell, you're working very late at night, or early in the am sweeping parking lots, right? In a job like that, I would assume you're not going to run into many people during the course of a night anyway. So, I just don't see how you can 'freak out' that many folks.
Besides, in my experience, even carrying openly but in a discreet holster, many people won't even notice you've got the gun.
If it were me, I'd carry tonight, and get that training, etc. ASAP. You never know when you'll need to defend yourself. Just say 'No' to crime ... carry.
Regards from AZ
Besides, in my experience, even carrying openly but in a discreet holster, many people won't even notice you've got the gun.
If it were me, I'd carry tonight, and get that training, etc. ASAP. You never know when you'll need to defend yourself. Just say 'No' to crime ... carry.
Regards from AZ
If you're allowed to by State law, I wouldn't worry about the "freak out" factor. Sure, many anti's will be screming into their cell phones that a "crazed gun owner is on the loose" but the police will get to know you after the first few harressment calls of the anti's and just ignore the calls or tell em that you'd allowed. Now, with the fed issue... that's a gray line there. You do realize that some of the laws state that you cannot touch a gun if you're not 21 (either that or they are being voted on) without direct supervison of your guardians. I still say the best thing that 18 to 21 yo's have right now (well, the only legal thing) is the vote. And remember, the feds don't give a hoot about States laws or the Right to run the State as they (the State elected officials) see fit.. just look at kalifornia and Oregon just to name a few (kalifornia: Medical Weed; Oregon: Assisted Suicide). Here in Idaho we are having a problem with the feds taking land.. we say go away, and NO but they say, F you, we're going to do it anyway. Just watch yourself.. you may get a rude wake up call and from your job description, you don't have the dough to be a test case against the feds (same as I). Sorry for the rant, have seen "laws" between States and feds screw many friends.
"Recognize that you're crossing a philosophical 'bridge' ... from complacency and raw hope, to awareness and preparedness. This is a significant journey. You have simply decided to buy 'insurance' by using 'safety rescue tools' as part of your 'risk management'. Many people never cross that bridge, or even know of it."
(I don't know how to 'snip')
Jeff Thomas, let me just say you are a class act. Level headed and artful with the language. I will save and re-use this quote, if you don't mind.
(I don't know how to 'snip')
Jeff Thomas, let me just say you are a class act. Level headed and artful with the language. I will save and re-use this quote, if you don't mind.
Danger Dave
New member
Russell, if I was working late at night in some questionable areas, I would carry, whether it was legal or not. As far as whether you should carry, you are the only one that can answer that. You have to use your own judgement, and hopefully some good advice from people that know you (your LEO uncle would probably be a great place to start).
If you're working alone, late at night, I wouldn't be at all concerned about the freak-out factor from strangers. Your sidearm won't be that visible, unless you're carrying some chromed-up hoss of a gun. And if a stranger, late at night, is worried about you having a gun, maybe they have a good reason to (like, maybe they wanted to rob you and just realized you won't be an easy target). If you're worried about your coworkers, my advice would be to carry a copy of the laws with you, and don't make a big deal out of it. Keep your pistol holstered and go about your job - they'll adjust to the idea of it being there (and who knows - after a week or so, you may not be the only one at your company carrying a sidearm). And believe me, the first time one of your more timid coworkers is in a scary situation, you'll find that they will want you & and your "friend" there from then on.
The only other advice I can give you is you should balance out your belt with a cell phone on the other side. Program a lawyer's number & a few emergency numbers in it. If you ever have to draw your sidearm, call the police immediately, even if no shots are fired. You don't want them coming to arrest you for "threatening" someone who claims he was just going to ask you for a dollar (he'll leave out the 8" knife he had pointed at you when he reports you having a gun - don't laugh; it's happened).
If you're working alone, late at night, I wouldn't be at all concerned about the freak-out factor from strangers. Your sidearm won't be that visible, unless you're carrying some chromed-up hoss of a gun. And if a stranger, late at night, is worried about you having a gun, maybe they have a good reason to (like, maybe they wanted to rob you and just realized you won't be an easy target). If you're worried about your coworkers, my advice would be to carry a copy of the laws with you, and don't make a big deal out of it. Keep your pistol holstered and go about your job - they'll adjust to the idea of it being there (and who knows - after a week or so, you may not be the only one at your company carrying a sidearm). And believe me, the first time one of your more timid coworkers is in a scary situation, you'll find that they will want you & and your "friend" there from then on.
The only other advice I can give you is you should balance out your belt with a cell phone on the other side. Program a lawyer's number & a few emergency numbers in it. If you ever have to draw your sidearm, call the police immediately, even if no shots are fired. You don't want them coming to arrest you for "threatening" someone who claims he was just going to ask you for a dollar (he'll leave out the 8" knife he had pointed at you when he reports you having a gun - don't laugh; it's happened).
Mr Blonde, I'm 18. In AZ you can openly carry when you're 18 but you have to be 21 to get a CCW.
USP45usp, I think you are referring to the Juvenile Justice (injustice) Bill which has not been passed and hopefully never will be. As it stands right now there are no federal laws preventing 18 year olds (adults) owning, transporting, carrying, or using firearms
Danger Dave, already have the cell phone
USP45usp, I think you are referring to the Juvenile Justice (injustice) Bill which has not been passed and hopefully never will be. As it stands right now there are no federal laws preventing 18 year olds (adults) owning, transporting, carrying, or using firearms
Danger Dave, already have the cell phone
Actually, I agree with the some of the statements that Danger Dave made. The choice factor. But I didn't say it. I ask myself one thing each day I get up to see another sunrise (or sunset depending on shift hours).. Is my life worth more then my job, other peoples opinions, and the feds "we will save you from yourself BS". The answer is always the same.. yes. It's your life, no matter what the government or others say. It's your duty to live your life the way you see fit. As for open carry.. if you can, do it. F the anti's and such, your life is more important. Now, If you are prone to meet or see lots of people on a daily basis, go concealled. It should only be a mistimeaner (sp) until the unConstitutional laws pass in the government making it a felony. If you get the right rig (holster) to fit your body and it doesn't print, 9 out of 10 people won't even know. It's your life. Dial 911 and hope it comes or decide for yourself. And please vote... you folks (18-21) get the "bad rap" but still you do nothing about it. If you're old enough to die for your country then you're an adult.. and should have the same benefits (drinking, smoking (which you can at 18) and Owning a Firearm, no matter the type, the calibre, or the finish (black, ugly vs. nice and pretty). My .04 cents worth. USP45ups