Self-defense vs Revenge

C

Coinneach

Staff Alumnus
Here's an unlikely but possible scenario.

You're minding your own business, when you're approached by another. Without warning or provocation, the person draws a gun and fires once, hitting you. He then goes about his business.

Are you justified in shooting back as he's departing?

Personally, I say yes, as he's a pretty clear threat to others. However, he's now shifted from an aggressive to a non-threatening posture, therefore, you're not justified in shooting him.

Discussion?
 
Inconspicuously? That's a good trick, considering you now have a bleeding hole somewhere in you. :)

[This message has been edited by Coinneach (edited July 11, 2000).]
 
Coineach: I should say that you'd be in a safe legal position if you drew on him and ordered him to stop right where he was... and then shot him if he kept going. After all, he's a felon fleeing the scene of a crime.

But JUST shooting him outright, without any order to stop? Might get away with it if you had a sympathetic jury, but you'd be legally in the wrong. Unless the wound were such that you were shortly going to lose consciousness; You don't KNOW, after all, that he's not just planing on hiding until you doze off, and then finish you off.

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Sic semper tyrannis!
 
I was only assuming that you were in the shape to "go on." Obviously, if you were hurt real bad, you'd go to the hospital. Check your e-mail in about 5 minutes.
 
Technically if he walks away he no longer poses a threat to you. Therefore you can't shoot him. ( Especially not in the back ) Now if you were able to get him to turn around to face you and you shot him, you could say that you were in fear for your life and I think that you would be o.k. in that situation. Also you woulld have to take into consideration the witnesses that might be present. Besides I think that after being shot you probably would not be as concerned with getting your assailant as you would be seeking medical attention! Getting shot hurts!!

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***Torpedo***
Life is great if you can survive it!
 
Torpedo: Breaking your leg in three places hurts, too; I did it, got up and tried to walk away, (Not recommended; The resulting vascular damage took longer to recover from than the breaks.) and then crawled home through a February rain storm with ice on the ground, and didn't feel a BIT of pain for a good half hour. It's NOT a safe assumption that somebody who's just been shot will be in a great deal of pain, or even particularly incapacitated.

Still, if somebody has just shot you out of the blue, it's hardly a safe assumption that just because they're walking away at the moment, that they're not a threat to you anymore. And unless some lawyer out there tells me otherwise, I'm going to assume that if the guy who just shot me keeps fleeing the scene of his violent felony after he's been told to stop, I'm free to shoot him, back to me or no.

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Sic semper tyrannis!
 
The bottom line test is: "What would a reasonable person do under the circumstances." And that is ultimately a jury question.

Sometimes we hear one say: "I'd rather be tried by 12 than carried by 6." However under the laws of state in which I live you only have the right to use deadly force likely to cause death or great bodily harm if you are in imminent danger of death or great bodily harm. There must always be both reasonable and factual grounds to believe that such force is necessary to prevent a "forcible felony" such as rape, robbery, murder, aggravated assault, aggravated battery, kidnapping, etc. Obviously one will note that worthless checks, sale of drugs, or grand theft are not forcible crimes.

In deciding whether defendant was justified in the use of force likely to cause death or great bodily harm, the Jury must judge the defendant by the circumstances by which he was surrounded at the time the force was used. The danger facing the defendant need not have been actual; however, to justify the use of force likely to cause death or great bodily harm, the appearance of danger must have been so real that a reasonably cautious and prudent person under the same circumstances would have believed that the danger could be avoided only through the use of that force. Based upon appearances, the defendant must have actually believed that the danger was real.

IT IS EXTREMELY IMPORTANT TO REMEMBER THAT IN ANY CASE INVOLVING THE ISSUE OF SELF-DEFENSE THE FACTS ARE THE CONTROLLING FACTOR IN DETERMINING IF THE DEADLY FORCE USED WAS OR WAS NOT JUSTIFIED. JUST ONE FACT CAN CHANGE A CASE FROM SELF-DEFENSE TO ONE OF MURDER OR MANSLAUGHTER.

T IS ALSO IMPORTANT TO REMEMBER THAT THE BEST ADVICE A LAWYER CAN GIVE HIS CLIENT IS: KEEP YOUR MOUTH SHUT.

Based on the facts given I do not have an opinion and would have to get some additional information before I could an opinion. However if there is a reasonable doubt then one should be found not guilty. Although that might be what ultimately happens that doesn't mean one might not be charged and/or prosecuted. Which reminds me the election of a prosecutor is extreamly important and we should all strive to elect pro-firearm, pro-self-defense prosecutors/district attorneys.
 
There is certainly a good legal argument to be made for not shooting in this case.

But.

"Reflective contemplation is not required in the presence of an upraised knife."

He still has the ability to kill you.
He still has the opportunity to kill you.
He (arguably) still is behaving in a way that places your life in jeaopardy (he was behaving this way a few moments before, and now look at what state you're in).
Drop him.
 
This is an abstract question on a principle of physics..namely Newton's Third Law.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>
Every action has an equal, and opposite, reaction.

[/quote]

'nuff said.

Best Regards,
Don


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The most foolish mistake we could make would be to allow the subjected people to carry arms;
History shows that all conquerers who have allowed their subjected people to carry arms have prepared their own fall.
Adolf Hitler
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"Corrupt the young, get them away from religion. Get them interested in sex. Make them superficial, and destroy their rugged- ness.
Get control of all means of publicity, and thereby get the peoples' mind off their government by focusing their attention on athletics, sexy books and plays, and other trivialities.
Divide the people into hostile groups by constantly harping on controversial matters of no importance."

Vladimir Ilich Lenin, former leader of USSR
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Today, we need a nation of Minutemen, citizens who are not only prepared to take arms, but citizens who regard the preservation of freedom as the basic purpose of their daily life and who are willing to consciously work and sacrifice for that freedom.

John F. Kennedy
 
Think outside the box.

Texas Code of Criminal Procedure, highlights are mine:

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Art. 14.01. [212] [259] [247] Offense within view.

(a) A peace officer or any other person, may, without a warrant, arrest an offender when the offense is committed in his
presence or within his view, if the offense is one classed as a felony or as an offense against the public peace.[/quote]

Murder and Aggravated Assault are most definently classed as felonies. If he attempts to resist your Citizens Arrest using Deadly Force, you defend yourself.

LawDog



[This message has been edited by LawDog (edited July 12, 2000).]
 
Assuming that I would still be functional, and that I had the arms available that I normally have, I'd have to say that not finishing me off, would be the last mistake such a lunatic would ever make.

I wouldn't give a thought to "legal implications." In war, I never have.
 
I think you're justified in shooting. He clearly committed a violent crime, you KNOW that he's the person who did it, escape is reasonably likely if you don't, and he clearly poses a danger to someone else. To make yourself legal, yell for him to stop and fire if he doesn't.

Of course, a reasonable person would believe that if someone shot you for no reason and then moves off, he's likely to come back. How do you know he didn't have a jam and is trying to clear it? Personally, I'd perform the indicated response and explain it that way to a jury.
 
He would die by whatever means possible - sooner rather than later.

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"Keep shootin till they quit floppin"
The Wife 2/2000
 
You should draw your weapon, shout "Hey, Mister Micro-Gonads! You're a lousy shot! I'm still standing!". When he angrily turns to face you again, double-tap him. You're much better off legally if you shoot him in the front.

DISCLAIMER: I am not a lawyer, just a sneaky bastid. This is not legal advice. :)
 
This is silly. A person has shot you and is still in your immediate presence with a firearm. That is a lethal force situation.

If he shoots you and then goes into the street and then you (despite your wound) get your Steyr Scout and go to the window and shoot him at 200 yards, you might have a problem.

In fact a cop just got in trouble for that because he shot a rifle at a bad guy in the street in some altercation. He was in his apartment.

Don't worry about this one.
 
OK, I'll play. Dirtbag shot you for no reason, is still nearby, who knows what goes thru the minds of scumbags. If I were able to return fire, I order him/her/it to stop in a very looud voice immediately before I blew it's effing head off. Prior behaior wasn't rational, who's to say scummie might not turn on you again? Neutralize the threat to the maximum of your ability. Have a nice day :).
M2
 
I don't believe in revenge. On the other hand, you can always wait & see if he blows your brains out before he exits the building & then decide. Go figure.

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Natava
http://users1.50megs.com/natava/
 
Of course all this discussion is theoretical. Chances are he would be shot in real life.

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You have to be there when it's all over. Otherwise you can't say "I told you so."

Better days to be,

Ed
 
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