Selecting test group size and variation for projectile gr load development?

NickGroves

Inactive
After speaking with a tech at Sierra they have recommended me to use a 155gr or 168gr projectile for my 20inch 1in10 barrel in .308, i ordered some 155gr and 168gr tipped matchkings today to try out (I will also throw in some 175gr tipped matchkings as well just because i habe them already).

So my question is, how do you guys test for projectile weight? I was going to use a minimum powder charge on all three projectiles and maybe do a batch of 10 or so each.

Im open to some suggestions and pointers.
 
Your twist will handle just about anything you want to run through it. Some like a touch slower but I like the 1-10 myself.

As for your question, I'm not real sure I follow, "how do you guys test for projectile weight?"

When I work up a load, I usually try to stick with the mid weight bullets for caliber, similar to what Sierra recommended. Most of, if not all of my loads are for hunting. I just don't shoot much paper unless I am playing with something like a scope or trying a new bullet or powder.

When I start off I load to the magazine length, and work up using the powders which are of a medium to slower burn rate. I have just found over the years these seem to work out better overall and give better percentage of fill to the case capacity. For the .308, I stick with either the 150 or 165gr loads and they shoot the best overall out of my little short Ruger Compact.

I really do not get overly concerned with velocity no matter what caliber I am loading for. I would rather have a load that is consistently accurate to the longest range I might want to use it, over one that is tipping the limits on what I can get out of it. In most cases this usually ends up between about the middle to three quarters of the load range.

Once I find something that shoots well, I verify it over several outings. When I am satisfied that I have something I will then run it across the chrony to see where I am at. Sometimes I have it set up while I am working up the load, and sometimes not. It depends on the weather and if I actually thought to bring it or not. I usually work up my loads on my property and it's a 3hr drive one way to get there. I pack up what I need and if I have room that particular trip I bring all I can. That said I usually have other things to do and so sometimes space is limited, or the weather might be questionable. My range has a nice building my daughter and I built so I can shoot in just about anything short of a torrential flood.

Do some research through several manuals or sources and look for the most common reoccurring powders. Those like the 4320, 4350, Varget, and H4895 all work pretty darned well depending on how your rifle likes them and the bullets being seated on top.

Primers like CCI and Winchester do a great job for 98% of my loads and the others I use like Wolf, and such are for my hog loads which I don't get overly carried away with. I load them with some surplus powder I picked up a few years back and the Remington 150gr CL and go for it. They shoot within an inch and a half out to 200yds, and that is plenty good for hog meat in the freezer or deer for that matter.
 
I don't. I pick the projectile based on the intended use and then work on a load to make it meet my accuracy needs.

I mostly shoot long range, so I tend to go with the heavier bullets, because generally speaking they are better in the wind.
 
I'm kinda like emcon5 if I'm reading him correctly - I pick a bullet first that best fits my end vision and work toward that end.

Nick, To me your strategy is flawed. Your starting plan is so far from the final end point, It may take you a long time to get anywhere.

Suggestion: Think thru what you want to finally accomplice. Is it 100yd group size? or Long range accuracy? or Hunting? and if hunting, Hunting what?
 
Ray, I definitely see what you are getting at. I am new to reloading so i wasnt sure if i should try the different projectiles they recommended and see what shoots the best from my gun. But i can also see where i am creating piles and piles of work for myself and will probably just spin in circles trying to accomplish the task.

I could honestly care less about 100yard target shooting... to me thats boaring. I am intending to develop this round in hopes of doing a few local matches.
 
You are looking at several different factors:

Bullet weight, it's baring surface and the twist rate of your barrel. Pick one of the three bullets and start with adjusting the powder charge. Once you see the groups getting smaller than you can adjust the COL of the round to match it to your chamber length (the setback from the lands). Once you find the best combination for that bullet then you can change bullets and start the review process over. Powder charge then COL.
 
Nick, Do you have any loads already worked up for that rifle?

If so what are they?

And, Do you have or have access to a chronograph?

You may could build (work-up) from the reloads you have already.
 
Too many factors involved to make a blanket statement.
Powder, primers, cases (and case prep) can and will affect accuracy.
Your twist rate should be fine for any of the choices you mentioned.
100 yard shooting is not fun, agreed. It does, however, give you a benchmark distance to judge accuracy.
 
"...test for projectile weight..." You don't do that. You work up the load using whatever powder you have(use IMR4064. Isn't the only good .308 powder.).
Matchkings are NOT suitable for hunting anything but varmints if hunting is your goal. The 155's are really good out to about 300 yards(even though they're required for Palma shooting). The 168's out to about 600 yards and your 175's past there. You will NOT get anywhere near the published velocities out of a 20" barrel either. Loads are tested with 24" barrels and 1 in 12 rifling. Isn't really an issue anyway. Accuracy out of your rifle is what matters.
 
Ray, i wouldn't say i have a load worked up. But i did load up 100rounds of virgin lapua brass with remingtin 9 1/2 primers, AA4064 powder at 40.5gr, and 178gr hornady bthp projectiles.
This is a group i shot at 500 yards with the loads i threw together. I tried them at 950yards and was able to get about 10 hits but really struggled with the wind.

I know the group isnt on paper, but i figure that would give me a decent idea of what it was doing. I know what shots are mine and what wasnt. It was verified by myself and the guy watching the impact.

I do have a chronograph, its a magnetospeed and I got a average of 2475fps from the end of the muzzle. According to my lyman book thats pretty close to the spec they listed (im sure they were using a different type of chronograph so my fps would be lower using the same type and distance).

T oheir, i did shoit an average of 2475fps using my magnetospeed chronograph with my 20inch barrel. Not sure how far or what type of chronograph they used for the lyman hand book, but if i recall correctly, they stated a 2450ish fps in the book. I will double check when i get home. Im sure me shooting threw on at 10ft vs right off the muzzle will give me a different reading. Just thought if throw that out there. I wouldn't think id be loosing 100fps in 10ft tho. I could also very well be wrong.

Edit, i guess i also get to eat my words and say... i looked it up and read a little bit about the loss of muzzle velocity... at 2000-2500fps you loose 10fps per 1".... for give me.. im new and still learning. Haha
 
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OK - If I understand,

Your wanting a long-range target load out to 1,000 yards for
a .308 Win rifle with a 20" barrel having a 1:10 twist?

Correct?
 
Since you already have the rifle - Let's pick a bullet that will do that well.

Use this link to find some possible bullets:

http://www.jbmballistics.com/cgi-bin/jbmtraj_simp-5.1.cgi

Run thru the 30 cal heavier-longer bullets with high BCs, note the trajectory drops and the wind drifts. Start with 174s and go up from there. You'll have to estimate how your muzzle velocity goes down as the bullet wt goes up.

Your looking to find a combination of muzzle velocities and bullet wts that will be going over mach 1.04 at 1000 yds. Once you have that list, Then pick a few that have the lower drop and and lower wind drift.
 
Ray, I ran the ballistics on the three rounds I had listed above, along with a handful of others with a few gr to gr comparisons. I took the max velocity from my lyman reloading book and subtracked 40fps from the max to account for my shorter barrel (24" test to my 20") to give me a idea.

155gr sierra tipped mk Drop:333.9 Windage: 90.4 Mach: 1.141 (2845fps)
168gr sierra tipped mk Drop:377.5 Windage: 94.6 Mach: 1.108 (2677fps)
175gr sierra tipped mk Drop:386.5 Windage: 95.7 Mach: 1.102 (2648fps)
178gr Hornady Bthp Drop: 386.1 Windage: 94.4 Mach: 1.124 (2648fps)
 
178gr hornady bthp Drop: 451.5 Windage: 103.6 Mach: 1.049 (2475fps)

So im at the lower limit of the Mach "spec" but im also capable of getting a bot more velocity out of that load do to being at minimum powder charge. But even at a higher velocity, they still dont seam to compare to the 155gr i have listed? (If i can reach that velocity of course)
 
A couple of things. First, you will typically lose to about 25 fps/in with the .308 in the barrel length range you are in. So your 20" tube should be about 100 fps slower than the 24" SAAMI standard test barrels produce, assuming your chamber is as tight as those are.

I converted the Hornady G1 BC of 0.53 to a G7 BC of 0.263 at 3000 fps and then adjusted it to 0.258 based on typical changes with velocity and ran the tables. The G7 tracks changes in BC with velocity better for this bullet shape. I get about Mach 0.97 at 1000 yards with your MV with that. Check Litz's book for more accurate measurements of BC at different velocities. But that's only if I believe your velocities. Based on Accurate's data for a 24" barrel with a Winchester case, dropping the water capacity a couple of grains for your Lapua brass, I get about 2345 fps from your barrel. You could have a "fast barrel" with a tight bore or other factors involved, but I would double-check the readings over a second chronograph to be sure there isn't a measurement error getting in somewhere. Many chronographs are only good to within 50 fps or so anyway, and maybe that's the issue. I've not used a Magnetospeed, so I don't have a sense of how well it does with that short sensor spacing. I'm not knocking it, I just think it sounds optimistic. If my velocity guess is closer to absolute, then your 900 yard speed would be about Mach 0.98 and 1000 yards would be at about Mach 0.93.

If you are going to shoot long range with a short barrel, you will have to pick and choose bullets carefully. The original 168 grain SMK is almost certain to be a bad choice for anything much over 600 yards. Bryan Litz points out it has a dynamic instability that becomes apparent below about 1400 fps (top of the transonic range). I have personally witnessed them tumbling and haring off every which way on a 750 yard popper, and when I attended Mid Tompkins's Long Range Firing School at Camp Perry in 2001, almost everyone on the line shooting 30 call had 168's and nobody could stay on the 800 yard targets with them and the pits reported keyholes for the ones that did hit. They are great out to 600 yards, but my advice is don't bother messing with them beyond that range. I have no information on how the new secant ogive STMK (Sierra Tipped MatchKing) bullets compare. If those are what you got, I don't know what to predict. I can tell you the 175 grain standard MatchKing does not have the instability problem. This is due, at least in part, to it having copied the 9° boat tail angle empirically arrived at by the Army after WWI for the M1 Ball bullet, rather than the 13° on the original 168 grain SMK.

Kevin Thomas was still a Sierra ballistics tech at the time and attended the same Long Range Firing School I did. When everyone complained about the keyholes, he said the 168 was intended as a 300 meter International Match bullet when it was designed, and the fact it worked well at 600 yards was a bonus for Sierra, but it was never meant to be a long range bullet. He recommended the 175 for long range, and at the lunch break at the school, everyone with 168's ran out and got ammo loaded with those bullets on Commercial Row. After lunch, no more keyholes or other problems. The 175 sails right through the transonic range. If you want to get past 600 yards, I can recommend that bullet. Again, the new tipped version I have no information about at this time.

The 155 grain were developed for .308 Palma match guns which typically have barrels of about 30 inch length to get enough velocity to keep the bullets supersonic all the way to 1000 yards. They use a 9° boattail. Their BC is good at muzzle velocity, but it drops off more than the 175's do when they slow down, IIRC. In other words, they can be a little more vulnerable to wind deflection. They were designed for a rule-imposed weight limit for Palma, and not because that weight is the best ballistic choice. They also have a smaller bearing surface and it pays to seat them with as little runout as possible. Search the forum on the topic and you will find some information on seating methods and on sizing cases to minimize pulling the neck off axis with an expander.

I recommend you look at Dan Newberry's OCW load development method.
 
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NickGroves wrote:

178gr hornady bthp Drop: 451.5 Windage: 103.6 Mach: 1.049 (2475fps)

So im at the lower limit of the Mach "spec" but im also capable of getting a bot more velocity out of that load do to being at minimum powder charge. But even at a higher velocity, they still dont seam to compare to the 155gr i have listed? (If i can reach that velocity of course).


I am surprised that load. you already have, was still SS at 1,000 yards,
But, I can't also see why you were having some problems with the windages.

This could be an opportunity!!! You know where you are with it!

Take that 178 load and work up the velocity toward max.
If nothing else, You'll have something to compare to,
If/when you began with those other bullets you got.
 
UncleNick, thansk for the reply. That was a good bit of information.

When i called sierra, the tech i spoke with told me the design of the tipped matchking was supposed to keep the bullet moving out to and past 1000yards and not key hole like you spoke of. The projectile seams to be "longer" from the tangent of the .308 diameter to the angle forward compaired to the hornady bthp i used in my last loading. I guess we will see how they all perform at distance.

I did pick up a lee collet neck sizing die as well that i will be using.

Ray, unfortunately do to my nature of jumping the gun... after i spoke to the sierra rep i just went ahead and ordered the projectiles. So i dont have any hornady 178gr bthp to load up at the moment. I will just give these a try first and see what happens. If they work, they work, if not... chock it up as a learning experience and move forward. Haha.
 
May 1997 issue of Precision Shooting had an ad for Krieger Barrels, Inc. that showed an actual-size copy of a 20-shot group shot at 800 yards by Bart Bobbitt with his Krieger Barrelled PALMA rifle. This group has a .942" mean radius, with an extreme spread of 3.325.

Bart and I had been contributing to rec.guns on usenet for a few years at that time and we asked him how he did it.

I used a .308 Win. with Sierra's 155-gr. Palma bullet with 45.3gr. of IMR4895 and RWS Primers in full-length sized WCC60 match cases. Had a 20X scope on the English Paramount action and shot prone with a bag under my front hand to steady the rifle. It was about 6AM in dead-calm wind conditions.

19 years later, this week I been asking Bart about powder charges.
He does not believe one powder charge is better than another if enough rounds are fired in the test.
 
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