Seizure on Suspicion

John/az2

New member
The site:
http://gonews.abcnews.go.com/sections/us/DailyNews/guns_connecticut990926.html

The article:
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>




Seizure on Suspicion
By Adam Gorlick -- The Associated Press

H A R T F O R D, Conn., Sept. 26 — Before Columbine High School, before the Atlanta day trader offices, before the Jewish community center in Los Angeles, there was Matthew Beck.
In March 1998, the 35-year-old accountant went on a suicidal shooting spree in his offices at the Connecticut Lottery headquarters. Four people died before Beck put the gun to his own head.
Lawmakers reacted with one of the toughest gun-seizure laws on the books.
Starting next month, Connecticut police will be allowed to confiscate guns from anyone determined to be an immediate danger to himself or others. The law is rooted in the notion that rampages such as Beck’s are preceded by a detectable descent into madness.
Critics say the law tramples the Second Amendment and fear it could lead to unwarranted searches and seizures.
Supporters say the standards for seizing guns are so high the law will seldom be used.
From both sides, Connecticut’s law—apparently the first of its kind—is attracting attention.
Seizure Conditions
Legally seizing a gun will require more than suspicion, said state police Lt. Robert Kiehm.
There must be evidence that the person recently tortured animals, threatened to kill himself or others or acted violently. A police investigation must conclude there is no other way to keep the person from doing harm, and a warrant must be issued by a judge.
The law also requires a hearing within 14 days to determine whether the gun should be returned.
Beck had threatened to kill his bosses at the lottery several days before the rampage. His co-workers were so nervous, one started bringing a gun to work for his own protection, said Rep. Michael Lawlor, the law’s sponsor.
Under the new law, if those co-workers had “called the cops and said Beck was talking about guns and making threats, something could have been done before the shooting happened,” Lawlor said.

Violates Constitutional Rights?
Gun-rights advocates argue that allowing police to take weapons from people who haven’t done anything wrong violates their Constitutional right to bear arms
“You don’t forfeit your rights just because you might do something bad,” said Dennis Fusaro, director of state legislation for Gun Owners of America. The National Rifle Association declined to comment.
The law also could lead to illegal searches, said Rep. Richard Tulisano. Lawmakers in other states say the focus on prevention is the law’s strength.
Illinois Rep. Tom Darta, a Chicago Democrat, said he plans to introduce a similar Illinois proposal in November.
“The thing that frustrates me is that when they’re pulling bodies out of a house, neighbors are telling the police ‘Yeah, the guy who shot them was nuts—we all knew that,“‘ Dart said.
Steven Duke, a Yale University law professor, said he doubts the law would have prevented Mark O. Barton from killing nine people at two brokerage firms in Atlanta in July.
“What guy who wants to shoot somebody is really going to be deterred because his pet weapon has been confiscated?” Duke asked.
But Lawlor said the new law could stop people like Benjamin Smith, the white supremacist who killed two people and wounded nine during a two-state shooting spree targeting Jews, blacks and Asians.
Smith’s criminal record and reputation for passing out hate literature could have prompted police to take action, Lawlor said.


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John/az

"The middle of the road between the extremes of good and evil, is evil. When freedom is at stake, your silence is not golden, it's yellow..." RKBA!

www.quixtar.com
referal #2005932
 
It seems to me that 'Torturing animals, making threats and acting violently" are violations of the law. Why don't they just put the guy that does these things in jail?
Why do you need to make this new law, when you can take care of the idiots using your already existing laws?

Oh, I'm sorry. That would make sense. Forgive me.

LawDog
 
Funny, we already have a law that permits the director of the Illinois State Police to revoke a Firearms Owners ID Card.

No FOID card, no legal guns, so I don't understand why we need additional legislation. Except that there are those who will seize any chance to restrict peoples rights.

Perhaps the legislator doesn't know there is already a law on the books allowing this. This suspicion thing is a very slippery slope. It opens things up to all sorts of abuses.

From people with an axe to grind to people who think the police should solve all of their problems, this is a bad thing.

The police state is closer then we think and in many cases the sheeple are begging for it. I have noticed that there is a trend for asking for a governement solution to every perceived problem. The number of complaints for "neighborhood problems" that our little PD receives here is up tremendously in the past five years. Just Thursday night I answered a call for service where a mother watched another boy come into her yard and kick her son, didn't do anything but call the police. 10 year olds sometimes do this, but rather then call the boys parents or try to find out what's going on with the two. It seems to me people are turning more and more to the police and government to solve their perceived problems. I wonder what will happen when the sheeple get the police state they are begging for?
Jeff
 
I wonder what will happen when the sheeple get the police state they are begging for?

They'll march humbly into the gas chambers, mumbling that someone should do something about this.

Sorry, just feeling a bit cynical...

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"America needs additional gun laws like a giraffe needs snow tires."
--Rabbi Mermelstein, JPFO
 
It seems to me people are turning more and more to the police and government to solve their perceived problems.

This is the ultimate goal of liberal gov't.

1) Don't think. (gov't will do that for you)
2) The gov't knows best. Trust them
3) Broken homes and children raised by the state. (No "nuclear family", unless it's two gay parents)
4) No home ownership. (pay "rent" to big "investment companies")
5) No one owns their own small business, but "works for" the giant companies, fired at the whim of some unqualified manager
6) Everyone on welfare. (Be dependent on gov't)
7) Rampant teen sex, drugs, and unwed pregnancies. (feeds #6 above)
8) No guns (people will just "hurt themselves")
9) EVERYONE'S a VICTIM. NO ONE IS "RESPONSIBLE" for anything. (except white males, who are responsible for all evil in the history of the world, and always will be)
10) Don't think.... Don't think.... Don't think....

Ah yes, the Liberal Utopia...
 
I can see this one being left on the books, completely unenforced, for a long time, then used by an opportunistic official to confiscate for any reason.

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I offer neither pay nor quarters nor provisions; I offer hunger, thirst, forced marches, battles and death. Let him who loves his country in his heart, and not his lips only, follow me.
-Giuseppe Garabaldi




[This message has been edited by Destructo6 (edited September 27, 1999).]
 
Jeff, the only bright side I can give you is that the reason we don't need this law is that it's going to be in Connecticut, not here. I laugh when people talk about taking away my right to own guns--this is Illinois, where THERE IS NO RIGHT TO OWN GUNS. ALL gun ownership of any kind is conditional and allowed at the whim of the state, if and when they get around to deciding to grant you a FOID. Hope that makes you feel better . . . :(
BTW, where in the world is Kinmundy? I never heard of it. Is it anywhere near the Quad Cities, Springfield, or Aurora areas? I sorta live in all of 'em . . . .

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Don

"Hey you, let's fight!"
"Them's fightin' words!"
 
Don,
Kinmundy is about 70 miles East of St Louis, in what is referred to as South Central Illinois. 30 miles South of Effingham, 30 miles North of Mt Vernon. Right on I57.

I am personally seeking employment out of state. Will retire from the Army soon and will take all this part time LEO experience somewhere where there is still freedom.

The Illinois General Assembly feels they have to solve every perceived problem. Did you know we have two laws in the Illinois Vehicle Code on mountain driving? We have no mountains, but we have a law that says you must sound your horn while rounding curves in canyons and defiles, and one that says you have to sound your horn before cresting blind hills. Never have figured out if they wanted to be prepared in case volcanic action ever suddenly put a mountain in the state or if they are getting ready to build one so Chicagoians don't have to drive so far to ski :)

More seriously, there is a trend amoung the public to turn to the police or other agencies to solve all of their problems for them. I don't think this is confined to my area. I would bet that other departments are experiencing the same thing. Problems that wuld never have required the police or other agency 14 years ago when I started are now the bulk of our calls.

I think it goes back to the roll over and be a victim advice that everyone hands out to people when asked how to deal with crime.

I always wondered what made my life anymore valuable then a non-LEOs to those people. LEOs are taught to fight, even when injured not to give up that they can prevail. The same people who advocate this for LEOs tell non-LEOs to give up what the criminal wants and hope he doesn't hurt you. I guess it's all part of the "don't concern yourself with it, let the professionals handle it" culture.

I think this is why the "gun culture" is attacked so much. We are independent, we don't want or need the help of government to run our daily lives.

Jeff
 
Funny that the police and the courts new about the mental condition and the firearms of the guy in the jewish community center attack. I don't recall them doing anything.Its seems to their advantage to let real lunatics run around doing these types of atrocities then pass new laws to take guns from people who never commit crimes. There is plenty of room here in Oklahoma for those seeking refuge from hostile antigun areas.


The LORD is my ROCK and my SALVATION in HIM will I trust.
 
You know guys, we should have seen this coming when books like 1984 and Animal Farm were removed from school reading lists. Ask any school kid what are the Federalist papers, or who wrote the Declaration of Independence and all you will get back is a blank stare. But nonsense and garbage like "Heather has Two Mommies" or "Daddy's Room Mate" are required reading. But all those dead white guys no longer count in the "Brave New World", ooops! That's also been removed.

Keep 'em stupid and they will be easier to control.


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Joe Portale
Sonoran Sidewinder
Tucson, Arizona territory
 
Joe, you hit the nail on the head.

Shame... isn't it? What are you going to do about it? (New PTA Member, looking for an office to run for)

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Not all Liberals are annoying... Some are Dead.
RAGE AGAINST THE MACHINE
The Critic formerly known as Kodiac
 
When I hear about laws like this, I have to wonder if the lawmakers crafting this little gem of legislation are the ones who are truly insane.
This is an example of emotionalism run rampant. After being barraged by a seemingly endless string of unexplainable mass murders a law like this almost makes sense. After all, these people were all wackos, so ALL WE HAVE TO DO is intercept them before those little voices in their heads tell them to go to the mall and shoot a few innocent people.
For people who are ruled by their feelings, this almost makes sense.
Now comes the tricky part.
Let's momentarily suspend the Constitutional arguments against this law. Forget about all that illegal search & seizure stuff for now.
How, exactly, is this procedure going to work?
First, a complaint has to be filed.
Then "evidence" that the individual has recently tortured animals, threatened to kill himself or others or acted violently has to be collected. The police investigating this individual then have to conclude that there "is no other way" to keep this person from doing harm. A judge has to be convinced by the evidence and their argument to that effect before a warrant will be issued.
So, taking into consideration the usual operational pace of our legal system, how much time are we looking at before this deranged crackpot gets his gun taken away from him?
A day?
A week?
A month?
Several months?
Any chance that once this character becomes aware of proceedings against him he decides to move his timetable up a little bit?
What about these solitary loners who just come out of the shadows without any warning? I mean, it seems that for this law to work you need some nosy neighbors.
How many false alarms are the police going to be wasting their time on? I'm sure there are some people out there who consider me "crazy". I know quite a few that I think are nuts.
While they're busy checking out all these people who haven't taken down their Christmas lights yet or mow their lawn in the nude, how many of the real loons are going to slip through the cracks?
But how could that happen? Don't we have a law to prevent that?
Yeah, ya' sure do!
Sleep tight sweetie.
 
I realize the original happened in Massachusetts, but it seems to me that the Salem Witch Hunt genes have resurfaced again.

I can envision a scene right out of the remake of "The Body Snatchers" when someone will stand up, point his finger at a gun owner and make that inhaled "oooooh!" noise. Life imitates art.

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If you can't fight City Hall, at least defecate on the steps.
 
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