Seeking Advice

J

johnsorrick

New member
Looking for advice and some guidance from experienced gunsmiths/builders/business owners…

My wife and I, along with my parents and my brother have plans to open a family business doing gunsmith work, custom builds, and manufacturing and building our own brand of firearms. This is a 3-5 year plan right now before we expect to open shop, there’s still preparations/research that need to be done. I’m putting together an outline of what we need to get squared away in regards to finding out the state and federal laws and guidelines in order to open/operate this type of business, permits, loans, insurance requirements, etc. Any advice such as step-by-step of where I should begin would be greatly appreciated.

A little background: my father has been taking gunsmith courses and working on his certifications for quite a while now and is approaching reaching his goals. My brother and I are both Marine Corps trained and experienced armorers/small arms repairmen. I know these qualifications alone will not be sufficient and are currently continuing our training and education, and, all three of us are working on our CNC machine training. I fully understand that in regards to training, we’re not quite there YET. Nevertheless, while continuing the training and education, I would like to gather all other pertinent information so that we can give this a go within our timeframe.

In addition, any other types of advice is welcomed and accepted with much appreciation… can never gain too much knowledge. I know that there’s many quality and experienced men and women on this site who have vast amounts of knowledge, and I’m eager to learn as much as I can. Thanks again.
 
Sources...

If you plan on starting a new small business in the shooting sports, Id list a few resources I am aware of. Other forum members may have information too.
Someone produced a DVD/CD-ROM program a few years ago called FFL 123 or something explaining how to obtain a FFL(federal firearms license). The NRA, www.nra.org has a business program too but Im not sure what they offer.
Cylinder-Slide in NE, has a few gunsmith courses for advanced level custom features, www.Cylinder-Slide.com .
The American Pistolsmiths Guild, www.AmericanPistol.com may be a good resource for your new business.
If you are a US armed forces veteran you may want to look into the state run programs & the federal level veteran programs for new small business owners; www.vetbiz.gov www.va.gov . Your state's veterans affairs office may provide business resources at the state or local level.
There are a few open source websites that market gunsmith videos & books; www.glockstore.com www.gunvideo.com www.deltapress.com www.paladin-press.com .
S&W offers a few armorer & gunsmith classes too. So does Beretta USA.

Clyde
 
No real advice or guidance...there may be a lot of naysayers chiming in and I would say take a good hard look at the points they make to see if they might apply to you. Singing Christmas carols at the family Christmas party might be hard to do if none of you are talking to each other because of business problems.

There certainly seems to be a huge backlog of custom gun work waiting to be done.

If you want some encouragement I really believe in the old saw about 'do what you love and you'll never work a day in your life.'

Also just for fun you might want to check out the story of Les Baer which is pretty interesting.
 
I currently work for a family owned business, as does my Mom and Wife, and my Stepdad worked for his family business (Medical Billing) and even ran it for a while. Although none of us have ever owned a business, we are fully aware of the challenges and potential ramifications that can arise and are prepared for it, and have discussed it in depth; thank you for the concern though.

We also understand that we may need to focus on repair and custom work for a while before making the jump into design and manufacturing our own product. We may not be experienced business tycoons, but we've got a pretty solid vision and the experience to feel confident that we can make it work. Our hurdle at the moment is lining all our "ducks in a row" and having solid research.
 
When you do open for business, try to refrain from the temptation of taking every job that walks in the door.
Focus on what you know you can do well, and to the complete satisfaction of the customer.
A reputation as a gunsmith is hard won and easily lost.
Don't be afraid of turning away business, if it's something that you're not really prepared to do.
Especially if it might result in complaints that could harm your reputation.
Not to mention the lost time and money and wasted resources, when things don't turn out well.
The gun industry is kind of small and interconnected, to a large degree.
And word gets around fast, both good and bad.
Just a thought.
 
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I'm going to assume you are going to get into the machining part of gunsmithing.

Lots of starving gunsmiths out there and then there are those who diversify.

Let me give you an example. I use to hang a round a gun shop. He was good. Did excellent work, but was starving. In the same mini mall was an auto parts store, and the manager use to hang out with us in the gunshot.

The autoparts guy was always looking for someone to do some light machining. Our gunsmith would whine and complain, saying he was a gunsmith not an auto machine shop.

One day I was off work because of a burned hand. I was hanging around the shop per normal when the auto parts guy came in with some wheel spacers he needed opened up 1/8 inch. While the gunsmith was complaining he couldn't get anything done because people wanted un-related gun work done.

While he was ranting I took the spacers and used his lathe and opened up the spacers, getting $20 a piece from the auto parts store, so in 20 minutes with an bandage hand I made $80, and all the time I was doing this, the gun smith didn't do anything but tell me I'm wasting my time.

The Gunsmith had to close up do to lack of business, I bought him out and opened my own shop. But when I put an add for gunsmithing in the yellow pages, (no internet back the) I also put in an add for "light machine shop services". My phone rang off the hook, I made good money, but it was time consuming. I had to close up because I was nearing retirement and working too much over time. Plus, besides working full time, I was running a guard unit.

My problem was not lack of work it was time. Had I not been nearing the end of my LE career and the NG, I could have made a good living.

Before you write off light machine work, look around your area, try to find a machine shop that does small jobs.

An example I had a contract with Firestone, resurfacing flywheels, 15 mins. floor time to floor time. Paid $25 each. I blued injectors for a large diesel repair shop, 75 cents each. I made $450-500 extra every time I fired up my bluing tanks to blue a rifle.

Think about light machine jobs while getting your business going. Small Machining jobs will keep your lights on and family fed while you're working on your dream of a gunsmithing business.

Careful though. You can get carried away, because of my other commitments I was hurting for time. I ended up getting burned out, almost ruining a good hobby. I decided when I retired from the Guard and Police department I didn't want to work. It took me a couple years before I would work with my lathes and milling machines. Now I only build my guns, (or that of my family). I don't need the money and I don't want to again burn out a hobby I love.
 
Get a Lawyer!

Being a small business owner myself I can say had I consulted with a lawyer when putting my contract proposals together as well as a few other details about residential contracts, I would have been better protected and I would have gotten a return on my investment in a recent contract alone.

Two things I did wrong>>>>

1: When the multimillion dollar (over 54) property investor claimed he didn't have the money to pay me he asked for a lien waiver. When it came time to pay he came in with another partial payment and asked for another extension. His goal was to get me past sixty days, then I had no right to a property lien.

2: In my standard contract proposal I had no statement in the agreement that should the responsible party not pay, they would be responsible for legal fees and other financial losses associated with any law suit to obtain moneys owed on said contract.

Several more little details associated with with business I learned through that consultation. They will protect me as I continue to grow.

Good luck in your endeavor and hope you have great success!
 
It might be a good idea to find someone with previous experience in the industry that can consult with you. You might even try calling someone like SCORE and see if they could help.
 
The lawyer is necessary as is a good CPA to develop the business model and prepare the cost estimates. There will be Federal licenses, state, county, city licenses/permits/fees (i.e. taxes), payroll, Obamacare, utilities, liability insurance, and more taxes and fees especially when you get into gun making with ITAR etc. Having good legal and accounting folks do their expertise up front can really help in determining whether or not it is financially viable where you are
 
Very sound advice, thank you all. Seems like consulting with a lawyer is a pretty consistent suggestion. As for providing light machine work on the side in order to pay the bills, excellent idea. We know this type of business can struggle in the beginning and that reputation is everything.
 
Oil boom...

If you or your family members have skilled trades or backgrounds in metal shop, you might want to work up in SD(Williston) for a few months or years.
The oil fields are booming with high paying jobs for qualified labor.
Don't think it's a cake walk in the oil industry areas too.
2/3 hour waits at Walmart or Target. 30/45 minute wait to get "fast food" :rolleyes:. $600-700.00 USD weekly rates for small hotel type suites. Constant traffic & vehicle accidents are problems also. One YouTuber said the winter winds can get up to 55MPH! :eek:

Joe, one of the machine shop/engineers on Sons of Guns, said in a industry/media interview that the Bakken Oil area was taking many skilled positions away from the gun companies(and related businesses).

If you can secure a job & stable living arrangements you might want to look into it.
 
Chasing a dream is THE American dream. I wish you well on your endeavor.
When I went to school for gunsmithing, a huge emphasis was placed on the business end of the company. You can be a great gunsmith but if you are a terrible businessman, you will fail.

As others have mentioned, it is ok to turn away work you are not comfortable with doing. I learned that in the business world, you cannot be all things to all people. Find a niche and become really good at it rather than a jack-of-all-trades and master-of-none. There are plenty of niches in the gun world whether it is the 1911 platform (saturated?), optics, triggers, firing groups, rifle or handgun, finishing, etc. If one of your crew is especially talented at one of these areas, make that a target to start with. Ideally, you will have someone proficient in a specific field for each field you wish to pursue. Build the business around the individual talents instead of trying to be a do-all for all comers.

The biggest cost is the equipment. Industrial equipment is not cheap and you will be shocked at the amount of capital you will need to be modestly equipped to start off. If you go heavy into CNC then expect the costs to be dramatic. If you use credit instead of hard cash, then your monthly expenses (nut) can choke you if you also need a paycheck for everybody involved. If you all can go without a paycheck for 2 years then you may be able to get past the huge initial start-up costs. When you consider the building, insurance and utilities needed, the monthly nut rises dramatically.

It sounds like you have the head for this task. If you have the capital to get up and running without using credit, you are well on your way. Someone within the company has to be a sharp business manager. The experience is needed in management more than shop skills. Many have suggested an accountant and lawyer. They are needed as much as any other worker there. Their fees add up as well so realize that the monthly costs will be a large burden until you have a reliable and stable cash flow. Going in under funded is a sure-fire recipe for disaster. Think business management as much as skilled labor and you should avoid the pitfalls so many find when they turn a hobby into a business. So far you seem to have a handle on it so a sound business plan is the next step to making it happen. Good luck!
 
Going in under funded is a sure-fire recipe for disaster. Think business management as much as skilled labor and you should avoid the pitfalls so many find when they turn a hobby into a business
Click to expand...

MEMORIZE THIS^^^^^^

More businesses fail because of this than any other reason.

I have watched restaurants go under because while the person was a great cook, their business sense was non-existent. Be prepared to go without a steady paycheck for a while - 85% of small business fail within the first year, 85% of the remainder within the second year, so make sure you have a SOUND business plan and financing.

Good luck!
 
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