Security guard shoots suspected car thief

azurefly

Moderator
http://www.click2houston.com/news/9760745/detail.html?subid=22100412&qs=1;bp=t


Not sure why they mention that he's a security guard -- it doesn't seem to be relevant. He's a guy who chased and shot a guy who stole his property.

I'm glad he did it, but sorry that the criminal has lived (to probably sue him eventually).

What do you all think? This is an oft-discussed subject, here -- that of, "shoot a guy over replaceable property?" I favor it. I wish it were universally legal. We have to stop tolerating crimes just because they're not crimes that result in harm to a person. That's down the slippery slope toward letting criminals have a free hand to run things, to do as they please, to make life miserable for all those who are not criminals.


-azurefly
 
azurefly said:
We have to stop tolerating crimes just because they're not crimes that result in harm to a person.

Have to disagree with you there...though of course I feel that the theft of replaceable property does harm another person, so I feel the shoot was fully justified. Everything I own I have worked for; thus everything I own I have given up time of my life for. This is true for a majority of people. All money really is is a marker given in exchange for a portion of your life.

So, by stealing my property, you are actually stealing time from my life. Time I cannot get back. Yeah, it's replaceable...but only if I give up more time from my life to earn the money to replace it. Perhaps insurance pays for it...but then chances are I'm paying a deductible (more time from my life), increased premiums (same), and I had to pay premiums in the first place (same).

So the use of deadly force to defend what is, essentially, a portion of your life really isn't all the unjust when you think about it. Don't like it? Don't steal from people.

In case any of you are wondering how this squares with my leftist-liberal-wacko-socialist views, PM me...it's outside the scope of this discussion but the answer is actually pretty simple. Not saying you'll agree, but it's pretty simple.
 
Not sure why they mention that he's a security guard -- it doesn't seem to be relevant.

Must be important - they mentioned "security guard" 6 times in a 125-word story.

A small point, but according to the story, the theft victim didn't shoot the thief because he stole the vehicle but because he was in fear for his life when the thief jumped out of the SUV at the dead end. Important difference.
 
It is said that the reason you can shoot someone in self-defense but not in property-defense (in most places) is that the law values life more than property.

This is probably because most involved with the law have a lot of extra property, wheras perhaps some others don't.

Perspective has a lot to do with it. Someone tries to rob me for $50, he can have it. Someone tries to rob me for $5,000, he's going to have a rough time because, while I might have it, it certainly isn't on me. Someone tries to rob me of $100,000, he's going to have a rough time, but for a different reason, that being that it's a significant portion of what I own and I am not giving it up. Even if I would give it up, the robber would have to accompany me to the bank and sit through an equity loan application.

It is entirely possible that there are people for whom $5,000 is a significant part of their wealth and won't part with it either, and their reason will be as good as mine. There might be people for whom $50 is their next tank of gas and without it, their job's gone. That makes $50 for them the same as $100,000 for me.

Just because I can turn my back and watch someone run off with my $50 weedeater and not be tempted to shoot him doesn't mean there isn't someone else who does lawn work and considers that same $50 weedeater a significant piece of his life and would be tempted.

In Florida, we actually CAN shoot people for taking our property. It works like this.

Here, you see someone making off with your weedeater. You open your door or window and yell at him to stop. I'm going to assume he's still on your property, because I haven't read up on the situation otherwise. So he doesn't stop. He's trespassing. You are authorized to initiate the use of non-deadly force to remove a trespasser once you have asked him to leave. He's either going to leave or offer you force in return. If he does the latter, you are allowed to meet that force with like force, including deadly force.

So if loss of your $50 weedeater isn't the end of the world to you, and your safety is more important, you let it go and report it. But if it's your life and the thief won't give it up, he most certainly is risking being shot.

I always ask myself what I'd do if I were on a jury deciding a case. If someone grabbed a weedeater valued at $50 new from the lawn of a mansion and what I described above happened, I would want to know why a mansion owner had to shoot someone over a $50 machine. If the same thing happened and it came to light that the weedeater was a much-needed tool for the lawn man who was manicuring the mansion's lawn and he yelled first and then just shot, I might not need to know as much to acquit him.
 
Crime committed during the hours of darkness in Texas falls under different rules.He said the magic phrase about being in fear of his life.
 
Have to disagree with you there...though of course I feel that the theft of replaceable property does harm another person, so I feel the shoot was fully justified. Everything I own I have worked for; thus everything I own I have given up time of my life for. This is true for a majority of people. All money really is is a marker given in exchange for a portion of your life.

So, by stealing my property, you are actually stealing time from my life. Time I cannot get back. Yeah, it's replaceable...but only if I give up more time from my life to earn the money to replace it. Perhaps insurance pays for it...but then chances are I'm paying a deductible (more time from my life), increased premiums (same), and I had to pay premiums in the first place (same).

So the use of deadly force to defend what is, essentially, a portion of your life really isn't all the unjust when you think about it. Don't like it? Don't steal from people.

+1 JuanCarlos. Property is an extension of your life. I have said this numerous times on this forum. Your car, for instance, is something you invested time money and hard work in to pay for. In stealing it, he is stealing a part of your life for himself so he doesn't have to work for it or work for the money he sells it (or it's stripped parts) for. In robbing you he has no regard for your life.


+1 azurefly. This notion that you should stand by and let some goon hotwire your car or help himself to what's in your house while you are on the phone with the police and wave bye bye when they take off is absurd. You have a gun or weapon there and have the means to stop them. The police can't be everywhere, if they were you wouldn't have to pick up the phone and call them. Letting criminals act with impunity is dangerous.
 
A small point, but according to the story, the theft victim didn't shoot the thief because he stole the vehicle but because he was in fear for his life when the thief jumped out of the SUV at the dead end. Important difference

Extraordinarily important difference. HUGE point. We don't have enough info to conclude, but this brings up the subject of self-defense really, not shooting for property. The latter is clearly illegal in all 50 states (except after dark in Texas), and if the guy dies is a homocide (murder). This is only implicated here if the guy's self-defense facts/story don't hold up, and he gets charged.

As for the normative question of how things *should be*, not how they are, legally....... I personally agree that one should be able to use deadly force to protect property, in the face of a clear theft. But that's probably because I grew up very poor, and worked hard for everything I've ever gotten. Most people do NOT share this value, I understand, and I can see both sides of it. It's a close call, but I think being able to protect your worldly possessions you've worked hard legally to earn against thieves trumps the thieves' right to stay healthy just because their crime isn't of the *violent* type (as here, when you have a simple theft, not a robbery). I would support an exception (murder charge) if it is found and provable that the property the shooter is protecting was *itself* stolen by the shooter, and not earned legally.
 
the question I'm sure will come up "why did you give chase? he had left your home area and you followed him. You should have let your car go and let the police handle it." Personally, I think he did the right and justifiable thing. The convoluted law and the DA might not.
 
Invention 45,
I understand what you're saying about the variable importance of various dollar amounts to various people.

I don't think that distinction should be drawn, though, when discussing the subject of whether a crime victim (of a robbery) is right or wrong to defend himself and/or his property using deadly force.

I think he should be able to do so. I see there being a huge problem in our society with more and more people being the type who are willing to cross the line into dangerous criminal behavior simply to gratify themselves and get the wealth they desire without having to work for it. With what seems to be a growing, ever-more-vicious criminal class, I see it as an imperative that good people be prepared, determined, and allowed to meet this force with force of their own.

I also do not draw a distinction between my being robbed of $50 or $50,000. Is there a gun stuck in my face, or a knife to my throat? Then what freakin' difference is there how much money I stand to lose?! :mad: This is about it being a robbery, not about how easily I can re-earn what was taken from me!!!!!


-azurefly
 
I'm not commenting on any law, simply morality. I do not support shooting any property thief simply for stealing property since this is a form of vigilante justice and immoral. The analogy that stealing property is like stealing a part of someone's life is too romantic of a notion to justify using lethal force against an "innocent" man under the Constitutional principle of innocent until proven guilty and Right to Due Process. To think that shooting a man in the back as he or she is running away from a stolen car is a valid reason for killing a person, whether it be a child or adult is insane. I'm not theorizing that is what happened here, but vigilante justice is akin to mob rule, and it's just too easy to falsely claim something like that in order to not be charged and to then allow it to happen with impunity.
I'm sure that millions of people across America and the world get paid for time on the job that they don't actually spend working. That might technically be considered to be the theft of labor (or fraud), and in many cases the victim is a large corporation or small company. What if your boss started shooting lackadaisical workers in the back as they left work for "stealing" company time? What if somebody committed a hit & run after totally wrecking your parked automobile? Are they now susceptible to being shot for trying to evade responsiblity? It's very similiar to stealing a car since it's stealing the value of a car, and now they are trying to get away with it.
Of course you can't shoot them since it would be immoral, so you dial 911 and let the cops do their job so you don't land in jail for turning a property crime into a murder or manslaughter.
And if anybody thinks differently about whether it's against the "convoluted" law or not, it's certainly immoral. The shooter will pay for that crime against morality whether it's in a courtroom or in his worst nightmare!
Under most laws, citizens generally have the right to use lethal force if they have a reasonable fear for their lives. An unreasonable fear doesn't usually justify shooting anyone. That's what juries are there to decide, what's reasonable fear and what's not. ;)

God is no respecter of persons.
Acts of the Apostles, 10. 34
 
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The security guard is a very moral person, he didn't kill the immoral car thief. I wish the security guard and his family all the best.

And the moral to the story is, don't steal cars from good armed citizens in Texas.
 
arcticap
Of course you can't shoot them since it would be immoral, so you dial 911 and let the cops do their job so you don't land in jail for turning a property crime into a murder or manslaughter.
The first thing you need to learn is that there is NO SUCH THING AS A NON-VIOLENT CRIMINAL!
Luke 12:39 KJV: "If the man of the house had known what hour the thief would come he would not have suffered him to enter." I don't think he would say pretty please. Like it or not we are on our own when it comes to protection. The biggest lie told is "Protect and Serve" because it is physically and logistically impossible. They can barely protect themselves. Cops are frequently shot with their own firearm.

Apparently many people are unaware that the courts have, many times, ruled that the police have no obligation to protect an individual.
The following are not merely anecdotes, but actual incidents that led to court rulings that support my assertion.

quote:
Ruth Brunell called the police on 20 different occasions to plead for protection from her husband. He was arrested only one time. One evening, Mr. Brunell telephoned his wife and told her he was coming over to kill her. When she called the police, they refused her request that they come to protect her. They told her to call back when he got there. Mr. Brunell stabbed his wife to death before she could call the police to tell them that he was there. The court held that the San Jose police were not liable for ignoring Mrs. Brunell's pleas for help (Hartzler v. City of San Jose, 46 Cal. App. 3d 6 (1st Dist. 1975)). Those of you in the Silicon Valley, please note what city this happened in!

quote:
Consider the case of Linda Riss, in which a young woman telephoned the police and begged for help because her ex-boyfriend had repeatedly threatened: "If I can't have you no one else will have you, and when I get through with you, no one else will want you." The day after she had pleaded for police protection, the ex-boyfriend threw lye in her face, blinding her in one eye, severely damaging the other, and permanently scarring her features. "What makes the City's position particularly difficult to understand," wrote a dissenting opinion in her tort suit against the City, "is that, in conformity to the dictates of the law, Linda did not carry any weapon for self-defense. Thus, by a rather bitter irony she was required to rely for protection on the City of New York which now denies all responsibility to her" (Riss v. New York, 240 N.E.2d 860 (N.Y.1968)). Note: Linda Riss obeyed the law, yet the law prevented her from arming herself in self defense.

quote:
Warren v. District of Columbia is one of the leading cases of this type. Two women were upstairs in a townhouse when they heard their roommate, a third women, being attacked downstairs by intruders. They phoned the police several times and were assured that officers were on the way. After about 30minutes, when their roommate's screams had stopped, they assumed that the police had finally arrived. When the two women went downstairs, they saw that, in fact, the police never came, but the intruders were still there. As the Warren court graphically states in the opinion: "For the next fourteen hours the women were held captive, raped, robbed, beaten, forced to commit sexual acts upon each other, and made to submit to the sexual demands of their attackers." The three women sued the District of Columbia for failing to protect them, but D.C.'s highest court exonerated the District and its police, saying that it is a "fundamental principle of American law that a government and its agents are under no general duty to provide public services, such as police protection, to any individual citizen" (Warren v. District of Columbia, 444 A.2d 1 (D.C. Ct. of Ap., 1981).

This last one is particularly interesting. Not only did the police not show up, but the women were assured that the police were en route. Now that was apparently a lie meant to reassure the women. While probably comforting, believing the lies of the police prompted them to go downstairs where they ended up raped and beaten for 14 hours. Had the dispatcher told them something along the lines of, "We'll get someone out there as soon as a unit is available," or "We won't be able to show up for at least 14 hours," then these women would've been spared the horror they experienced. Not only did the police not show up, these women were lied to about the police showing up. Hardly surprising but certainly disappointing.

Strangely enough the United States Supreme Court has also upheld rulings that cops are under no obligation to protect the individual.
As stated by the old timers from long ago: The Lord helps them who help themselves.
 
D.C.'s highest court exonerated the District and its police, saying that it is a "fundamental principle of American law that a government and its agents are under no general duty to provide public services, such as police protection, to any individual citizen" (Warren v. District of Columbia, 444 A.2d 1 (D.C. Ct. of Ap., 1981).

This last one is particularly interesting. Not only did the police not show up, but the women were assured that the police were en route. Now that was apparently a lie meant to reassure the women. While probably comforting, believing the lies of the police prompted them to go downstairs where they ended up raped and beaten for 14 hours.

When I read about situations like this one, it always makes me wonder about the potential for this kind of thing to turn an ordinary person who used to have (albeit misguided) faith in the police and courts into a sociopathic, vengeance-driven fountain of hatred and anger, possibly putting him/her on a mission to be a serial cop-killer or something.

My post is intended to be neutral in terms of pro- or con, but I am saying that my mind is boggled trying to fathom the feelings one would have if one not only had to endure the torment by the criminals, but then had to witness the triumph of malfeasant authorities not being held accountable in any way for their utter failure to do their duty. (Particularly in a place where those same authorities insist that the citizens are not allowed to possess the means to protect themselves.)

I can see how it might really bend a person, drive a person to go on a warpath against those they perceive to have wronged them.

Think Henry Bowman. That's what I'm getting at.
I mean, how could you continue to live your life knowing that the cops could so abysmally fail you, and then do anything but admit that failure, apologize to you, compensate you for your harm?! I think it would be staggeringly traumatic.


-azurefly
 
I don't think that distinction should be drawn, though, when discussing the subject of whether a crime victim (of a robbery) is right or wrong to defend himself and/or his property using deadly force.

This didn't seem to be a robbery. Robbery's an entirely different animal. A robbery is really an explicit or implicit threat, with ability and opportunity, to cause you death or serious bodily injury, sometimes even if you comply. In this case, I think you are ALWAYS justified in shooting the robber if you can manage it.
 
"I do not support shooting any property thief simply for stealing property since this is a form of vigilante justice and immoral."

You're just throwing words around. "SELF DEFENSE" is what happens when someone shoots a thief who is stealing his property or attacking his person. "Vigilante justice" is what happens when the victim tracks down the thief, visits him at home the next night and cuts all his fingers off.

The difference is between being reactive and being retroactive.
 
azurefly , You have forgottenthe first point of law and that is to protect the rights of the criminal at and above all else, they are after all poor underpriviledged people that never got a break in life and were probably mistreated by their parensts as a child, B S.
 
^
Ow Kelly....you're breaking my bleeding heart :( :( ;) I think we live in such a socialistic society (I don't mean all out communism as a form of goverment and all, but more in our thinking) that we have downplayed the importance of property and have this mindset that everything really to some extent belongs to everyone so stealing really isn't all that bad....in fact it's only bad that that poor guy had to steal because some other selfish people (who own property too) deprived him in life and it's bad because the so-called property owner was "just" slightly inconvenienced. It's really not a big deal.

The biggest lie told is "Protect and Serve" because it is physically and logistically impossible. They can barely protect themselves. Cops are frequently shot with their own firearm.

+1

We have become dependant on police. This is exactly what critics of the 19th century feared happening when big cities started organizing police forces. The original intent was not that they be a military to "serve and protect" everyone but to catch criminals. Solve crimes not prevent crimes.

It really is a false sense of security.
 
The car had already been stolen and the security guard chased the car on public streets. Just because the security guard successfully chased down the thief and shot him doesn't mean he was justified in doing so. And the security guard shouldn't have allowed himself to be in such proximity to the escaping thief to warrant having to shoot him in the first place. That's what I would classify as an "unnecessary" shooting and poor judgement on the part of the guard, to chase someone and then claim that he felt threatened.
With rights come responsibilities to excercise good judgement. The guard's judgement was primarily based on being a vigilantee and wanting revenge it would seem. Just when were the cops called and why didn't the guard stay at a safer distance until the cops could arrive? The cops love to get bad guys when they have the opportunity, or is supporting the law of the land and the police now totally politically incorrect?
Personally, I don't think it's unfathomable that the guard could be charged and his life in ruins even if he was clearly the victim, simply for instigating a reckless chase, a possibly unjustified shooting and for exercising vigilantee style judgement, all possibly interpreted by a jury of peers as being outside of accepted legal boundaries.:rolleyes:
 
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