Second Thoughts on FN

G

George Hill

Staff Alumnus
Just read in interesting article about the new FN Pistol called the Five-seveN.
Now, let me back up here a second... in the same issue there is old Masad talking about soldiers complaining about how week the wussy little M-1 Carbine is shooting it's feeble little .30 Carbine round. He even compaired it to the M-16's .223 - and mentioned again Soldiers who where less than impressed with it's terminal balistics....
Okay - Fast Forward again... The FN pistol. Its even WEAKER than both of those units... It has the ability to zip through soft body armour... but has little effect after that.
Oh - wait a sec - That was out of the longer barrelled P-90!
The shorter pistol gets even less.
The bullets are essentially steel .22 rounds - so they have no chance of expansion. But WOW - they are "Unstable" so they will tumble. Nice. Unstable to me means easier to deflect and inaccurate with a little range and wind tossed in.
I dont see these new weapons from FN as real advancements... To me they seem rather Sgt Yorkish.
And just what is up with the ATF banning this wuss caliber as MIL/LEO Only... Calling it NON SPORTING. How conveiniant for FN! Its not wussy - it's just TOO EVIL for Citizens to handle. Nothing makes a POS seem desirable like making it an EXCLUSIVE POS. This is like 10 years ago film makers TRIED to get an R rating to make the movie seem cooler.
I seriously hope Agencies and Departments in Utah dont buy into this hype.
The FN is certainly nifty looking and undoubtedly fun to shoot. But if you want to outfit your teams - Buy an AR and spend the rest of the money on training - or Beer for the Boys. Anything but wasting it on a UNPROVEN concept. Yeah - it was used in a couple engagements - But do we have the details of the results of these shootings? Nope. Stick with what WORKS...


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"A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity." - Sigmund Freud
Hey - have you seen the new Ultimate Super Tactical Match Gun?



[This message has been edited by George Hill (edited December 07, 1999).]
 
The way I understood it, this round was originally conceived to be a pistol cartridge that could penetrate body armor. That may well be a worthwile concept, but once you've put that concept into anything larger than a pistol, all you've got is a high-tech, weak AR. I don't get it either. The ATF ought to ENCOURAGE this round, that way serious criminals that want vest penetration power will switch from more effective rounds to the 5 - 7. Would probably save lives in the end.

About the .30 carbine - All the BS about the round should be taken with a grain or 2 of salt. My wife's grandfather was in the Army in the Pacific in WWII and he LOVED the carbine. They did everything they could to get rid of the Garands in the unit and get Thompson's and Carbines. Why? The Garand gets really heavy in 105 degree heat with 110% humidity and you can't see 50 yds into the jungle anyway. What were you going to do with a 30-06 that couldn't reasonably be done with a .30 carbine at that range? They especially liked the Thompson because occasionally some banzai Japanese soldier would rush them with a grenade in each hand from 30 yds. That's when the concept of the "Battlefield Subgun" isn't just academic. In Korea, the carbine was probably a nightmare, but in the jungles in WWII it was popular and even preferred by some.

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"Put a rifle in the hands of a Subject, and he immediately becomes a Citizen." -- Jeff Cooper
 
Owning both Garand and M1 carbine, I can well see how .30 was viewed as weak...compared to 30-06! But 2000fps 110gr even with hardball ought to be at least marginally adequate...and one could carry the carbine and a dozen 15-rd magazines for the weight and bulk of an empty Garand. At 1,5km range in Korea, Garand made sense...at 30m, I'd think the carbine would be fine...trades power for faster rate of fire...but not so fast that the user can't carry enough ammo. Of course, my choice would have been a Thompson, as the M3 is, IMO, unsafe and Garand/03 aren't brush guns...
 
Hi, George,

I pretty much agree. But what do you mean "Sgt Yorkish". York was a good shot and used a real rifle (the Model 1917), not a squirt gun.

If the bullet is steel, it falls under the "armor piercing" ban, so BATF had no choice. If they make it in a soft core version, It should be OK.

Jim
 
Remember, in the Ayoob article, it was mentioned that a lot of the koreans where doped up on opium and benzidine. That, with the cold causing less blood flow and thicker clothing, I can see why the .30 carbine would be considered weak. Don't get me wrong I think it is a neat gun, and it would be hard to beat at close ranges or in tight spaces.

About the FN, I think that it sounds underpowered. For example, just recently there was a post on this board about that new high velocity pistol ammo coming out of Texas. If you look at the stats, you can get a bullet moving the same speed out of a .40, only the .40 was at 70 grains instead of 30 something like the FN. That seems to be twice the bullet, at the same speed, shot at standard pressures, out a pistol that most of us already own.

I understand the idea about body armor, thats why I am in favor of a .223 in the patrol car. However, I would much rather have a sidearm that is ineffective against bodyarmor, but known to be effective against regular BG's. Rather that an unknown quantity that can poke holes in armor. How often will you run into armor anyway? Probably a lot less often than you run into a regular armorless shooting.
 
I take George's reference to Sgt. York to mean the Sgt. York (DAVID?) AA system which was built on the chasis of the M48 or M60 tank. Despite all the best efforts of the engineers invovled, the radar tracking system never quite worked. Another problem with the Sgt. York system, since it was built on the chasis of the M60, it was too slow to keep up the a modern force composed of Abrams and Bradleys anyway.

It was the Army's failed attempt to honor a WWI hero. Maybe we should have called it the Sgt. Bilko (with all due respect to Phil Silvers).

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Vigilantibus et non dormientibus jura subveniunt
 
4V50 Gary: I think the acronym was DIVADS (DIVisional Air Defense System).

As for the 5.7x28mm FN cartridge, it would make a dandy varmint round with something like the 35gr Hornady V-Max or a Nosler Ballistic Tip.
 
Gary - you nailed it on the head. My refrence to Sgt York was regarding the Forward Air Defense project that was a huge failure. Odd thing about it - the guns, the radar and other systems worked pretty well independant of each other. When it was all put together - it fizzeled.
This was no slight on the hero.

Jim - the BATF didnt restrict the rounds - they restricted the whole CALIBER. They could be BLANKS and still be illegal for you or I.

Does FN really think they got the patent on armor punching pistols?
Wasn't there a version of the Raging Bull revolver chambered for .22 Hornet? That would unzip a kevlar vest pretty handily I would think - and give you a more accurate pistol as well. Ammo would be much easier to find. You can buy it at walmart. The idea of having to go to the factory to buy more shells isnt comfy to me. I bet a handloader who knew his stuff could load the Hornets just as hot or hotter than the 5.7mm

I think FN has got a little silly with this.

hyper velocity sub caliber munitions are a fine concept - but this doesnt hit the mark.
If FN wants to play this game, here is what they need to do:
1. Make the guns smoothbore.
2. Make the bullets FSDS rounds. (fin stabilized discarding sabots)
3. Make the rounds about twice as fast.

William Gibson in his earlier work mentions a Gunslinging girl named Molly. Molly has a nasty little pistol that is like what FN is trying to make. She has a "fletchet" gun. The pistol is shooting these hyper velocity fletchets - at a super high RPM. Well over 1100 RPM. That would make the concept work, I think.

------------------
"A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity." - Sigmund Freud
Hey - have you seen the new Ultimate Super Tactical Match Gun?
 
Sounds like one more attempt by misguided designers to enable troops to carry more ammo. "Fire Superiority" = increased misses down range. I hope the Marines are still teaching troops to be a rifleman first - none of the other services ever have. Maybe it is an effort to have a "kinder,gentler" weapon. A least the 55gr. 223 would usually break in half at the cannalure providing two wound channels. The heavier .223 rounds do not. A .308 is hard to beat.
 
About the Sgt. York, I once heard this story.
It was a disaster as the radar could not
reliably pick up the rotor blades. It was
supposed to detect their radar signature
by Doppler shift or something like that.

The military tried all kinds of tricks to
get it to work.

Finally, they thought they had it and
scheduled a big test in front of the brass
and assorted bigwigs.

They were sitting in a grandstands on the
test field. A drone helio was going to
fly by and be blasted by the 40mms.

Thus, the system was activated. Unfortunately,
next to the grandstands was a portable
toilet with fan on the top to keep it
non-smelly for the brass. The radar
found it and as it was a closer "rotor"
The Sgt.York tracked its muzzles across
the grand stand causing the crowd to dive
for cover.

It then vaporized the potty. No one was in it,
luckily.

If this is true - I don't know but it's a
great story.
 
hehe - Sounds cool...
But no - not true.

------------------
"A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity." - Sigmund Freud
Hey - have you seen the new Ultimate Super Tactical Match Gun?
 
I really love my M-16/M-4 (depends on the current unit), but the .223 round has been maligned since it saw combat as being ineffective. Jeff Cooper refers to it as a "poodle shooter." I'm don't agree with him, but the issued 5.56 is twice as heavy and faster? than the FiveseveN, and it's rep as a fight stopper with NATO ball isn't really that great. Why would anyone want something bullistically less than it? A kevlar punching pistol is a great concept for certain fields, but it doesn't look like FN really thought this one through.

Chuck
 
I, too, am underwhelmed with the latest FN offering.

Wouldn't the 22 WMR with its typical FMJ bullet be a pretty good armor puncher? I remember my ol' S&W Model 48 (K-22, except in 22 WMR) was pretty good for ventilating junk car bodies... Cheaper ammo, too!

As Col. Jeff so often says, FN 57 sounds like a solution in search of a problem! :)

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Be mentally deliberate but muscularly fast. Aim for just above the belt buckle Wyatt Earp
45 ACP: Give 'em a new navel! BigG
"It is error alone that needs government support; truth can stand by itself." Tom Jefferson, Notes on Virginia, 1785
 
here is the scary thing about FiveseveN ammo being non civilian:

it signals the start of the civilian militia being left out of future hardware upgrades!

here are some FN links:
http://MYplace.to.be/FN/weapon/fn-p90.htm
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>
to equip military personnel whose prime activity is not to serve a small arm

to equip special forces with a weapon tailored to their assignments

to introduce a new caliber which will advantageously replace the obsolescent 9 x 19 parabellum NATO ammunition[/quote]

ammo specs:
http://MYplace.to.be/FN/images/fn-p90b.jpg

other links:
http://www.fnmfg.com/products/ind-pr.htm
http://www.remtek.com/arms/fn/
http://www.remtek.com/arms/fn/57/index.htm
FN's Five-seveN® Pistol
The First of a New Generation
In 1935, the FN-made Browning Hi Power was revolutionary. The market quickly adopted this high-capacity 9mm pistol accordingly, and it has since been fielded
by over 100 countries.

FN's newest contribution the handgun's evolution is named the Five-seveN®. This 20-round pistol fires a 5.7mm bullet that will defeat most body armor in
military service around the world today. Essentially, the Five-seveN® represents a quantum leap forward in the handgun's suitablity for close engagements by
delivering the type of performance that was previously confined to rifles or carbines. Elements of this performance include:

High magazine capacity: The Five-seveN® comes standard with 20-round magazine.

High stopping power: The Five-seveN® fires the 5.7x28mm SS190 Ball round which
reliably penetrates Kevlar helmets and vests as well as CRISAT protection.

High hit probability: The Five-seveN's® extremely low recoil impulse results in virtually
no muzzle climb, thereby facilitating fast and controllable follow-up shots.

Yet, the Five-seveN® is:

Light and ergonomic: Weighing 30% less than most 9mm pistols, the smoothly-contoured
Five-seveN® is comfortable to carry and quick to deploy.

Fully safe: Due to its double-action firing mechanism, the Five-seveN® offers no inherent
risk of accidental discharge during transportation. Furthermore, all of its safety devices are
automatically reengaged following each firing cycle.

The Five-seveN® fires the SS190 5.7x28mm ball round. This projectile will perforate any
individual protection on today's battlefield including the PASGT kevlar helmet, 48 layers of
kevlar body armor and the CRISAT target (titanium and kevlar). The SS190's conventional
design allows it to be manufactured on existing production lines, and its lead-free composition
eliminates range contamination.
 
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