Seating Straight

C

cw308

New member
I was having a occasional problem when seating a 45ACP , I was getting a bulge on one side of the case at the base of the bullet from not seating perfectly straight. First , when sizing the fired case with the RCBS Carbide die the sized OD is .468 , the bullet is a 230 gr. FMJ .451 with a case thickness of .010 that normally will give you when sized straight a even bulge equally all around . The Lyman M expanding neck die corrected my problem and the Hornady sleeved seating die adds to making reloading trouble free . Set up is simple . With the input from everyone one on this forum corrected my problem . Thank You Everyone , A Great Group of People , Glade to be part of the family . Thanks Again .

Chris
 
Is the M-die a powder through die , meaning can it be used with a powder thrower on the press ? I use the Lee CTP and need all the stations right now but If I can switch out my Lee flare/powder drop die for the M-die I may just do that .
 
Metal
I don't think so , the expander plug works much better then the flare plug on my RCBS die . I expand the OD on the case to .473 the bullet sits just right . I think the Lee expands the same as the Lyman . Are you having a issue like I was having or just want to try something different . I do also like the Hornady sleeved seater , not as good as the Redding but on 45ACP works just as good .

Chris
 
I do also like the Hornady sleeved seater , not as good as the Redding but on 45ACP works just as good .
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I do not choose to have the luxury of not liking something just because I do not understand 'it'.

My like for all of this stuff goes back many years. 'many years'; Herter sold bullet seating dies called 'universal'. They sold the Universal in kits as in one die and assorted seating plugs. The design allowed for dropping bullets through an opening in the side of the die, the bushing aligned the bullet with the neck of the case.

And then there were Weatherby die sets, the Weatherby die set included a universal seating die. I thought the concept was a great ideal because forcing the bullet to set on top of the neck for the long ride up to be seated. I understand the seating die is designed to align the bullet up with the case as the ram is raised (we all understand the seating die is not a sizing die and it does not give case body support).

I have two different sets of RCBS seating dies that are competition seating dies and Gold medal seating dies. To save money I added a few parts and pieces to increase the utility of the seating dies.

And then one day I made a seater, no die body; I just made a seater that is one of the most accurate aligning tools for bullets I have seen. I know that one makes a difference because of the reduce resistance to seating. It is effortless.

F. Guffey
 
No not having an issue but only because I take the time to line the bullet up straight and flare enough . I just keep hearing how these M-dies are the cats meow and figure might as well get one . I like making the reloading process more efficient when ever it is possible .
 
M dies, I do not have M dies, At one time I purchased die sets by RCBS for cheap. They made a few mistakes if 3 could be considered 'a few'. Each die set had an expander with a primer punch. Problem, the sizing die did not have a primer punch and the die body was not threaded for a primer punch (on all of the sizing dies). They got things turned around when the got into the progressive press business.

So; what to do with al of those dies that would not punch the primer out on the first station? We converted the dies to neck expanders. We did not get carried away.

F. Guffey
 
I Think I could adjust my flare through die ( not sure what to call it ) so it only drops the charge and does not flare the case . Then use the M-die to flare the case and next seat and crimp at the same station allowing the removal of the separate crimp station . Actually how would that work , do I have that backwards ? I only have 4 stations , should it be ( size , m-die , powder drop , seat and crimp ) ?
 
I just keep hearing how these M-dies are the cats meow and figure might as well get one .
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I just checked a couple of my die sets, and the expander dies (.38 & .44) says "Lyman Exp Die M1" on them. There might be an M2 die body somewhere in the catalog, but I've never seen one.

The "M" die is an open die body, with an expander plug. The plug is solid, not the powder through type, and predates the powder-through die concept by decades.


It is the standard expander die in Lyman's 3 die sets. Lyman's expander plug has a different profile to it than other die makers used. It has a step, which others didn't have. I have older RCBS dies, where not only is the expander plug just a "straight taper" but also include the decapping pin.

These dies decap during case mouth flaring, while the Lyman dies decap during sizing.
 
do I have that backwards ? I only have 4 stations , should it be ( size , m-die , powder drop , seat and crimp ) ?
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The RL550B Dillon punches primers on station #1 and installs primers on station #1. The Dillon expander is also a powder through die. Expanders made before the progressive press had expanders with primer punches.

And then came the lock out die, I will not load on a progressive press without a lock out die or a powder die; that creates a problem, according to Dillon because they recommend using a seating die and a separate crimp die, With a press with 4 stations it does not take long to runout of stations; so? If it is absolutely compulsory to seat and crimp on separate stations I will crimp on another press.

I started on the progressive press with the RCBS 5 station Piggy Back and then moved to the Piggy Back 11. The Biggy Back 11 was auto advance.

F. Guffey
 
Metal god
On your four station press , thats the order I would go with . I use to seat and crimp on one stroke but having a single stage and the time I seat all , then use a crime die to finish them off . The M die the flare is like the average flare it's more of a slightly wider OD , works great to set the bullet .
 
Interesting thread on pistol cases in a progressive....we never heard of "M" dies a few years ago. :)

I've been experimenting with rifle lately and it has everything to do with the same "M" effect.

Everybody knows by now that RCBS decided to make a 7 station press.....sort of a have your cake and eat it too press....stations for anything you can imagine.

What most don't know is that RCBS, at the shot show last year (almost off-handedly mentioned by Ken Sakamoto) came out with an interesting new product called a "Tube Rifle Bullet Feeder". Ho hum right?

Well after two years I finally bought a Pro Chucker 7....... (after the teething pains were over)

Getting it together and in a "play-with-it" mind set, I started looking for things to do with it......and ended up finding out about the new rifle b. feeder.

Turns out the new feeder comes with a feeder die AND an "M" die for 22 caliber and 30 caliber ammo.

Here's what I did on the rifle side of things:

station 1 -- Auto case feed, size/deprime
station 2 -- "M" style expand to let bullets slip in straight as an arrow later (upstroke, primes)
station 3 -- charge with powder
station 4 -- powder check
station 5 -- bullet feeder tube style....yes one can buy or build collator for it...if you feel the need (I doubt I will).
station 6 -- seat
station 7 -- crimp

Who'd a thunk you could fill up 7 stations with a rifle setup.

Next....pistol.....Lyman "M" here I come.
 
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I'm removing the regular flare from the sized and flared cases and prepping them in the M expander for now on .
 
Does the m-die have an insert that can be used in the lee expander/flare die ? If so , could the insert then be machined to allow it to be a m- powder drop die ?
 
Does the m-die have an insert that can be used in the lee expander/flare die ?
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NO.

At least not the dies I have. Other than the lock rings, its rare to find any part of one brand dies that fit and work on or in a different brand's dies. Sometimes you don't get part commonality even within the same brand, as designs get changed over time.

My M dies are Lyman All American, part of the 3 die pistol set, designed and made in those ancient dark days when the most "progressive" press was the Lyman Spar-T turret press. Back when Lyman presses were gray and red, not orange.

Dies came in a black fiberboard box, with a velvet tray inside. They are chromed (I assume, they are shiny compared to RCBS and Lee), and the set came with a die wrench. I have the .38 SPl/.357 and the .44SPL&Mag sets. Bought new in the 70s.

The expander die (M die) is a "Universal" open body (meaning no part of the die body touches the case), big enough to handle .45 caliber cases with a little room to spare. The expander plug shaft is just under a half inch diameter at the lower end, where the expander plug screws into to, and larger at the threaded top end (about .560") where it goes through the die body.

It is solid, not a "powder through" type. I checked with the Lee set I have (.32acp) and the Lyman M expander stem won't work, the shaft threads are too small to engage the Lee die body, by just a tiny amount. You might be able to make an adapter, but it would need to be very thin, and you'd still have a solid shaft, not a powder through type.


You could, with machine tools, take just the Lyman expander plug, and bore a hole through it, and possibly turn it to fit in the Lee die body, but it might be too short to activate the powder drop system. An additional spacer might be needed. Can't say for sure, you'd need to measure the actual parts you were going to use.

IF you want the Lyman M style "step" expander for a powder through die, I would suggest first going to Lyman and seeing what they currently offer.

If they don't have something that would work for you, then get a Lee powder through set up LARGER than what you need, and turn it down, to the desired diameters. Yes, two diameters, one for the inside of the case, and one for the "step".

I just did a quick and dirty check of the expander plug from my .44Mag set, and it has 3 diameters. .425" then the first step, .430" and then the "last step" which is the full diameter of the plug where it meets the shaft. .455"
You CAN flare the brass using the largest "step" but I don't recommend it. :D
I'm pretty sure just taking the guts out of a Lyman die and putting them in a Lee die won't work.

Good Luck!
 
Metal
I wouldn't screw around with doing a Rube Goldberg on the die , your four station press in the order you listed should work out fine . The step on the M die on the 45acp case isn't opened up any more then .455 for a .45I OD bullet , crimp won't be working that hard to bring bullet and case to .471OD in most cases , give it a shot it will start another post . Let me know how it goes , you probably already ordered it .

Chris
 
So; what to do with al of those dies that would not punch the primer out on the first station? We converted the dies to neck expanders. We did not get carried away.
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SO? A few of us had tool post grinders, others had grinders that would grind in-line, angles and 'to length'. We would grind the expander 'to size' with two die bodies; one long and the other short. After that, it depended on the length of the case. I was always going for 'all the bullet I hold I could get' but I still had to get the bullet started in the neck without folding the neck and or peeling lead.

F. Guffey
 
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