Seating Dies, Forster vs Redding

[oley55]

Forster Ultra Micrometer Seater Die vs Redding Competition Seater Die

I'm in the market for a micro seating die for 308 WIN. I already have a Redding competition die in 223, which I like very much except for not being able to use it for compressed loads.

From what I can tell through on-line product descriptions, it appears the Forster Micrometer Seater die does not prohibit compressed loads. It is also quite a bit cheaper ($83 vs $133).

Besides the obvious price difference, is the Forster die in the same league as the Redding? And does anyone know if the Forster can handle compressed loads?

 

[Unclenick]

The difference is the Redding die's seating ram floats, which their patent claims will prevent bullet tilting in one circumstance that the older Forster design will not. However, I have no information on how often that actually comes up. Both are very good dies. Since the Forster seating ram stem is fixed on threads like a conventional seating die and instead of on a little round contact point coming down on it as happens in the Redding, I should think it will handle compressed loads just fine. The Redding can still handle slight compression but definitely no heavy compression.

 

[cw308]

Why is it a must to compress a load ? Is it because your shooting long distance ?

 

[RC20]

I got the Foreseter just to try it as well as loading 30-06 and if there was a better support system for the alighnment. Its a nice tool.

I looked at the Redding, but last look they had ity tiny add on micrometer and that seemed flaky.

I also have two of the RCBS (one of which will do 30-06 as well as 308, the Forster is 30-06 specific)

The Forster works, I prefer the side port seating chamber of the RCBS.

I don''t know if one works better than the other. 06 shot better groups until recently, but its got a better barrel on it as well.

At least for my noise level the Forster is certainly good enough.

 

[oley55]

Why is it a must to compress a load ? Is it because your shooting long distance ?

It is certainly not a must, but a possible future limitation. Depending on caliber/powder, often the reported accuracy load is compressed (as per reloading manuals).

 

[1stmar]

Following thjs thread as well. Rc20 did you see any improvement in concentricity with the forster die?

 

[Metal god]

I already have a Redding competition die in 223, which I like very much except for not being able to use it for compressed loads.

I thought in my thread asking this very question it was concluded you can use the Redding die on compressed loads ????
https://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=598724

Obviously the Redding competition seater die is the front runner . How ever I run a few compressed loads ( less in 308 then 223 ) but still do in both . I've read that the Redding seater stem or what ever it's called is on a spring and compressed load can result in inconsistent seating depths ?????

The spring in the Redding Competition Seating Die returns the case alignment sleeve that follows the case body. It is not between the stem and the micrometer stop, so there is no problem there. Only if you compressed so much that it bulged the case inside the alignment sleeve could I see the potential for an issue to arise.

Here is the best price I could find and where I bought my Redding die a couple weeks ago . Right now it looks like it's a back order item .
http://www.brunoshooters.com/product/13349.html

Why is it a must to compress a load ? Is it because your shooting long distance ?

Short answer is yes , however a more detailed answer would be - When loading heavy long bullets in the 223/5.56 case and also needing to be feed from a magazine at a COAL of 2.260 the base of the bullet is often very deep into the case .
EXAMPLE :

When using many of the most common powders for these loads (stick) you almost always have a compressed load . All my 69gr and heavier 223/5.56 loads are compressed at least a little . I had one load awhile back using IMR-4064 that you could hear the powder crunching as the bullet was seated . I started using a 6" drop tube to settle the powder which stopped the crunching of the powder .

Anyways it's not that I/we need or even want compressed loads , It's just a result of the cartridge and the components used a lot of the times .

 

[cw308]

Metal god
Makes perfect sense , I was thinking every bullet was like a 168gr MK in a 308 case . Small world think , thanks again.

Chris

 

[RC20]

Following thjs thread as well. Rc20 did you see any improvement in concentricity with the forster die?

I looked at concentric and there was a lot of mixed reviews on it, certainly for the type of shooting I do. As my best groups are 1/4 inch (and more rare than I like) I have not invested in the test machine to see.

I just use good dies and the Lyman M die for neck size and avoid that yank from the ball in the sizer die (mine are removed)

One of these days I may buy the tool.

 

[Metal god]

I should add that photo above is a bit misleading . It was taken for another reason . The case on the left is the case with a COAL of 2.260 , the other was a COAL much shorter I used as an example in another thread . The case on the left still would have the complete BT below the base of the shoulder with most powders I use filling the case to the top of the shoulder if I don't use a drop tube .

 

[disseminator]

This is included by Redding with the Competition Seating Dies:

I thought I had something which specifically said the Forster was OK with compressed loads but I cant find it. I'll post it up if I find it.

 

[RC20]

And when Forster says don't size military cases (primer crimp) with their dies, they really mean it.

I did have the crimps ground out and ok with RCBS but broke the floating shaft in the Forester,.

 

[Metal god]

Yep mine had the same paper . I take that to mean VERY compressed loads as Unclenick was pointing out .

Only if you compressed so much that it bulged the case inside the alignment sleeve could I see the potential for an issue to arise.

I'm not worried about compressed loads with mine but I don't overly compress any loads . YMMV

 

[Unclenick]

I disassembled one of my Redding dies to check my memory and part of the floating deal is the micrometer contact point is an almost hemispherical raised area. This lets the seating stem tilt a little if it needs to for ultimate alignment. The Forster doesn't have that, but the Forster threaded stem will distribute loading force over a larger area, which is why is should be good to go with compressed loads.

I looked at the Redding, but last look they had ity tiny add on micrometer and that seemed flaky.

That add-on is for their standard seating die which has no problem with compressed loads. The Competition Seating Die comes with a full-size micrometer thimble standard.

 

[Metal god]

So have we changed are minds on compressed loads using the Redding die ?

 

[hounddawg]

If your seating die is bending the case necks to where the bullet is not concentric with the case body then you have a bigger problem than the brand seating dies you are using

Stick a bullet into a unsized case and try and bend the neck with your fingers

 

[Unclenick]

So have we changed are minds on compressed loads using the Redding die ?

I don't think so. I've loaded copies of the Federal GMM 308 168 grain SMK loads with my Redding 308 Win Competition Seating Die before, and they are about 0.4% compressed, which is pretty light compression, and I've had no problem. I would not try a 5% compressed load, though.

The Forster looks like it can handle compressed loads the same as any other seating die.

 

[reynolds357]

I like Forster dies. I like Redding better. My last Forster sizer had to go back because no matter what I lubed with, I stuck 30% of my cases. There was "nothing wrong with the die" but amazingly after it came back, it has not stuck a single case in over 500 pieces sized. I guess UPS fixed it in the ride back for service ????

 

[Metal god]

I don't think so. I've loaded copies of the Federal GMM 308 168 grain SMK loads

Interesting you use that example because I don't think 43.3gr of IMR 4064 is all that compressed . It likely is but not by much or I need a better understanding of compressed ?? I use almost all stick powders and half of those are the long stick powders . I'd say just about all of those loads have the bullet touching/pushing on the powder when the bullet is seated . If the bullet touches the powder at all , is that considered a compressed load ? Or is it based on a general fill rate and the loads are just called compressed even if you use a looong drop tube so the bullet does not compress the charge ??

 

[MarkCO]

Ugh...

For seating single stage, or turret, I much prefer the Forster and all of my precision rounds, I use the Forster Ultra Seating Die. For loading on a Progressive I prefer Redding. I do not like the sizing dies from Forster at all.

What I think is important with reloading is to understand what you are trying to accomplish and then get the best die, or combination of dies, for those goals. Speed, easy, accuracy, cost, steps, brass life, are all in play. I have a few tool heads that have a sizing die from one company, seating die from another and crimp (pistol and SA rifle) from another. I have modified dies and tool heads to get what I need. Like a .45 Colt Lee Collet crimp die to make a stab crimp on .450BM. RCBS, Lyman, Lee, Dillon, Redding, Forster and even a few custom made dies sit on my bench.